Episode 225 - The Lostkills with Alan Via

[00:00:29] The bushwhacks were some of the worst days I've ever had in the mountains, or life really. Whereas Pantsy Mountain is totally opposite, it's a mountain on top of a crater. I think the weather challenges on this incident were particularly difficult. It is really the development of New York State. Catskills will respond to it.

[00:00:59] Passmenter, Inside The Line: The Catskill Mountains Podcast We're not recording yet. Oh, we're recording right now. Okay. We're recorded, Alan. Can I hold something up? Absolutely. I mean, I don't think anybody will be able to see it, but it looks like Alan will be joining us for one specific reason tonight on Episode 225.

[00:01:26] His new book called The Lost Kills. Now, Alan, we're going to talk about this later. We're going to talk about The Lost Kills. Now, it sounds a little intriguing, like The Lost Kills. I mean, that's good stuff. I'm excited. So, how are you doing tonight? I'm in there. You're in there, in there. Yeah, yeah. So, Episode 225, tonight Alan Via joins us to talk about his new book called The Lost Kills.

[00:01:51] He's been on the podcast before, Episode 38, freaking almost 200 episodes ago. Wow. Insane. Insane. So, Alan's a big promoter of the outdoors. He has several books out, The Catskill 67. What was that other one that you had out there? Dog Hiker. Dog Hiker. Dog Hiker. That's the one we talked about. Sorry about that.

[00:02:12] The first one was the Catskill 67, which kind of kicked off the whole Catskill 100 highest group of people. And that's been a lot of fun. But I actually learned my lesson from that when I was working on The Lost Kills.

[00:02:35] And the lesson, the lesson was, even though there's a, a, a whole section in the beginning of the Catskill 67 about asking for permission, how to ask for permission, don't trespass, bring some cookies and a bottle of wine to the landowner to say thanks.

[00:02:55] Of course, once that escapes out into public, you got people who say, oh yeah, you can park right here. The guy won't care. And then he finds coffee cups and beer cans and trash. Um, and then the complaints, and then the complaints, uh, uh, start.

[00:03:16] Yeah. So the Lost Kills is every square mile is on public land. That's either DEC or DEP land.

[00:03:27] Okay. Um, and, and when it, when it comes close to, uh, uh, uh, private land, uh, and to stay on public land. Okay. And some are on, uh, DEP, um, right-of-ways, which are, which are shown. There's no tracks on the book.

[00:03:57] Um, I give a lot of description, but on, on, on places where you go through a, uh, uh, public land, indeed, uh, bordered by DEP land on, on either side, uh, there'll be a narrow corridor that, uh, DEP sets up when they, when they buy the land.

[00:04:18] And in, and in those cases, uh, my friend and cartographer, uh, Lynn, uh, Liz Cruz, uh, shows, uh, two lines side by side showing where you, where you have to go. But otherwise there are no tracks in the book. Interesting. Well, the idea, the idea is that, uh, follow the description written, um, written from a hiker's point of view, uh, in a bushwhacker's point of view.

[00:04:47] And, um, you should be able to, you should be able to, to navigate that. Now, if you walk in the woods, you walk in the woods surrounded by, um, uh, public, uh, private land, then you either need to have some sort of, uh, uh, program on your phone or a GPS. So you stay, you stay, uh, legal. Yeah. Yeah. We'll definitely get into the book, uh, later. Definitely. Yeah.

[00:05:14] I just, I'm just interested in talking about hiking and bushwhacking and as much as you want to talk about in the book. Oh, oh hell yeah, definitely. So, you know, I wanted to bring this up. National get outdoors, uh, day was fall fell on June 13th. Um, and as they, they said that the participation levels had increased each year in the United States. So, um, they are seeing this as somewhat a good thing and a bad thing. Um, I would say good because people are getting outside.

[00:05:42] People are starting to enjoy the outdoors, but also it's a bad thing that more people are getting out that we, uh, unfortunately, this administration has taken off the, the funding for this kind of stuff. So it's, uh, it's getting a little like back and forth of just, can we control this and stuff like that? Um, but, um, as we see these peoples in these greases going outdoors, uh, it's also putting people to the perspective of that nature is, you know, number one healing. It helps you.

[00:06:12] Number two, nature is life that, you know, we got to keep it clean and stuff. And number three, that, uh, we do need participation like, uh, like forest rangers and stuff like that in these state parks, these, uh, national parks and stuff like that. You know, as I saw, when I went up to California, went over to California, you know, a lot of people were out. A lot of people were, were out enjoying Yosemite and Sequoia and Kings Canyon and stuff like that.

[00:06:38] So like within the latest federal data, um, the outdoor recreation economy at 60, $697.7 billion in value added, which is equivalent to 2.4 U S gross domestic product. So hiking along drew roughly 63 million participants in the most recent recording period, making the most popular outdoor specific activity in the country. So that's, that's crazy and awesome to see, you know, just to hear about that.

[00:07:08] You know, we, we've seen this, Alan, you've, you've been hiking here for decades, uh, with that. And then the Adirondacks, I mean, you've seen the popularity increase spike back and forth, back and forth. I remember, you know, uh, Jim Bouton and Ralph Rindach talking to me, you know, that back in the seventies, like it was almost one of the same similar spikes as we saw with COVID that it just somehow out of nowhere jumped. And everybody was outdoors.

[00:07:34] And now we have this, this is a little different because everybody's posting it and stuff. I don't know how the word got out in the 1970s about it. You know, it's just like as a word of mouth, but, um, so, I mean, what, what, what can you say about your experience? You know, hiking, you know, back when you were young and, and the, the differences that it is then and now with that crazy spike. Well, you mentioned the national park. So I want to just comment on that and we can jump back to your question. Right.

[00:08:02] You probably saw the, the increase in, in, um, in people in, uh, Josemite. Unfortunately, without naming names, uh, this administration has, um, uh, lifted the reservation policy for the national parks. Yep. So what I'm seeing and what I'm hearing from people who are, are, are hiking is that campgrounds are mobbed. The roads are mobbed.

[00:08:29] There's, there's traffic jams depending on the time of day, the day of the week. Um, and of course there's been cuts to the ranger staff. So, um, I kind of, I kind of wish that it was the way it was and, uh, the resource would be, uh, more carefully protected. Yeah. Yeah. And I've hiked in a, and I've hiked in a bunch of the national parks out west and a bunch of the state parks in Arizona, Utah, Oregon, Washington.

[00:09:00] Um, uh, and by the way, just a little plug for that, uh, as nice as the national parks are, and they're a jewel, some of the state parks and the, in the Western states and Colorado, Arizona, Utah. Um, there, there's gems of hikes with a very, very small percentage of, of, uh, hikers. Yeah. I've heard. And you probably experienced that yourself when you were out there. Yeah.

[00:09:27] It's, uh, you know, I experienced the, the no reservation, uh, policy that happened. And, you know, at, at one time, you know, once again, hiking, you want to kind of be secluded, but I would think with Yosemite, I was just blown away. By the, the beauty that I didn't care. The grandeur. Yeah. It's just, you know, it's just insane of just what you're, what you can see and stuff. I really didn't care about the people. Yeah.

[00:09:54] I did yell at kids sometimes because they were there being assholes and stuff. But, uh, other than that, like people were respectful, you know, I mean, it, it was just like, like I said, the, the beauty, the absolute beauty of it was just mind boggling. And I didn't care about the people. I was like, yeah, whatever. We got there early. You know, we learned that here in the Catskills and in COVID times, we had to get parking spots early. It's really different though. When, uh, in Yosemite, you know, they have parking spots for 200, 300 cars.

[00:10:24] And then you have Panther mountain that has parking spots for 15. So I'm like, I'm like, all right. I'm just like, that's a little way crazy. Like just the volume is insane. But, uh, you know, it's just, it's just crazy. It's just once again to think about, but, you know, hopefully like with the experience, like you, you people like you and me and, you know, James Hopson, Ralph and Ted and stuff, you know, let's, let's hope that like we're preaching and teaching that, you know, to, to respect nature. Yeah.

[00:10:54] Respect nature. And by the way, I didn't mention, I'm sorry to mention everyone that Ted won't be joining us tonight. Uh, sorry. Uh, because he has got called into work or something like that. He had, he had other obligations. So we'll see him back next week. So, but anyway, uh, speaking of that, uh, yeah, I really don't have that much to say. Did you hear the one thing I did want to talk about? Because you're, I know you're white. Have you done the 48 up in the whites? Yeah. A long time ago. Okay.

[00:11:25] I finished those in the, in the eighties. Oh, wow. That's a long time ago. But you, you've still, you've hiked there since, right? Like you've been up there. Not as often as I, not as often as I like, because, um, there's, there's so much in, in, uh, in, in, in Vermont.

[00:11:45] Uh, there's so much in the Catskills and in the Adirondacks, um, uh, having, you know, with a family and, and, and, uh, grandkids and dog hikers. Yeah. Right. Uh, trooper now, trooper now. Trooper now to, to, uh, Maine. Um, I spent, I've spent, uh, a, uh, a couple of weeks in Maine separate times. Um, but that's a, as you know, that's a, that's a long haul.

[00:12:15] So, um, it's not, it's not like, uh, wow. You've been there and you've done it because you can, you can hike a lot. Yeah. Um, but there's just, I mean, you throw in all of the hikes out in the Western U.S. Um, you gotta, you gotta pick your spots. Yeah. I mean, there was recently a, a death on Mount Munadoc up there in the, in the whites. Mount Munadoc. Moosilaki.

[00:12:43] Uh, I think it was Mount Munadoc. Hold on. Monadoc. Monadoc. Ah, see as. Supposedly the most climbed mountain in, in, uh, North America. Yeah. That's the one that's, uh, right on the border of, or right by Lincoln. All Rocky, all Rocky top. I didn't. When we, when we, we went with some friends, I mean, there are probably 75 people on the summit, but the summit is really big. Ah. And rock.

[00:13:11] And it's got a whole bunch of different, uh, trails. Uh, what was it? A weather incident? No, no. They haven't found that out. That just said the person was suffering on the trail. They started performing CPR and then the person passed and they had to bring them down. And, uh, they're, they're still in, uh, under investigation, you know, that's, uh, yeah. I've, uh, and you, when did you say you were, there were 75 people on there back in the, the eighties or.

[00:13:37] Um, I'm trying to think maybe, maybe in the 1990s. Wow. And there was this early, early, early two thousands. Is that, is that, why is it so popular? Like, is it very easy? Hiker so many trails. It's near populated, you know, easy to get at with some of the interstates. Okay. It's a, for a, for a small mountain, it's got a beautiful view on the top.

[00:14:04] Um, I didn't realize how many people were going to, going to be there, but we went with, I'm going to be four or five, six people and, and we just had a really good time. But I mean, it, it wasn't a wilderness experience, but it's a beautiful mountain. And I don't know that I'd want to get stuck in a jam in the winter time there with nobody around and be hurt. Yeah. Sounds like it was a cardiac situation for the poor person. Yeah. It stinks. And I think they were hiking alone.

[00:14:33] So, uh, so our respects go out to the, uh, the person who suffered and, uh, thank you to the people. There was people like bystanders that were performing CPR. So that's, that's awesome. Um, even if you go there solo, you're not hiking alone. Yeah. I mean, I've heard that, you know, but once again, and like my wife and I are looking to get back maybe up to New Hampshire or Vermont for our, uh, anniversary this year, we kind of always do, do that. So that was one of my radar because I, I've done a pretty decent, I wouldn't say decent

[00:15:03] amount. I'd done the Pemi Gosset loop and I've done, um, I did the Prezi, uh, last year. So I have, I've stuffed the cross off the list and that was kind of like my first one to save Bond cliff, save Bond cliff for a really nice day. I already summited Bond cliff. Oh, okay. Then you already know about it. Yes. But I summited it in the pouring rain. So I didn't have a view. Oh, it's beautiful.

[00:15:27] I, I actually, I was actually asked to write a couple of articles for, uh, one of, uh, the white's hiking guides. And I, and, uh, I chose, I chose to talk about a day I had on Bond cliff and I was by myself in the summer. And when I got there, there were a group of, uh, raisin of raisins, raisin, probably, probably a flock of 15 or 20.

[00:15:54] And I just kind of settled in and watched them. They were, I don't know, 30 or 40 feet away and they would take off in pairs and, and just spiral up and do these big spirals flipping upside down in pairs like, uh, fighter jets on display. And then they come back down and then another pair would go up. And I watched that for about an hour. And it was like, the pairs would say, see if you can top this. Wow. It was a really magical day.

[00:16:24] And it was no humidity and it was just beautiful. And if you can imagine that there was nobody there for the, I don't know, the two or three hours I was, I was on the summit. One experience, right? It was an experience, but you were asking about hiking quote back then. And, uh, there were, there were some crowds in places, but, uh, it's nothing like now. And of course, uh, social media, uh, feeds of friends, even beautiful spots.

[00:16:54] And, uh, I think I got in touch with you and I, and when people post these really, really nice spots, um, the first thing you'll do is you'll see people start saying, where is that? Yeah. Um, uh, and, um, uh, in my opinion, those are the three most dangerous words on the internet. Where is, or where is this? Yeah.

[00:17:17] Um, uh, it's not like you want to hide it, but, but that's sort of how the blue hole started with publicity out of a newspaper out in, um, in New York city. Um, and, and, and so it's nice stuff if people want to post it, but, um, I, I think too much detail in terms of how to get to these secret waterfalls and secret views and stuff, um, can,

[00:17:44] uh, uh, can, can sometimes cause problems depending on where, on where it is. Of course. Of course. I have friends and I do it too, with these beautiful views. Um, but, uh, there's a, there's a downside. You know, you want to attract people to be able to go and enjoy it, but you want to be sure, um, a hoard doesn't go. Yeah. Yeah. That's the right people. That's, that's the thing.

[00:18:11] That's the right people go there to once again, teach and preach like us, you know, like to, to preserve it and to keep it like it once was. It's beautiful. And I don't want you to go there. I can't, I can't say that when, when Jim Hobson, when James, I, I want people to go there. I just don't, I just don't want to, uh, the social media people to discover it.

[00:18:35] It's, it's, it's, it's perfectly fine to talk about it and say where you were, but, um, I prefer people who, uh, who get word of mouth or go with other hikers or self-serve in common here or look in a, in a guidebook. Yeah. Nice. Nice. Nice. Well, um, I know I'm going to get some criticism on the lost kills about, because there are a lot of places that are, um, very lightly visited in some cases, almost never visited,

[00:19:05] but the kind of people, the kind of people who, who get a lot of, uh, a guidebook and look at a map are not the kind of, are not the kind of people that are going to, that are going to pick it up from, from me doing a selfie someplace in, in, uh, on, on, uh, Facebook. Yeah. And that's why, you know, that's why I love this podcast because the, I don't think you,

[00:19:32] Alan, I don't think you think this, this podcast is as popular as you think it is. It's not. It's the people that listen to this podcast and, uh, and like participate are very dedicated people to the, like, uh, leave no trace, um, like bushwhacking. I've seen your sponsors and, and, and, uh, not that you need my approval, but I think I, I agree. And not, not that we don't get a lot of people looking at it. I just think that the people who listen to it are, are people who are dedicated. They are awesome.

[00:20:00] People like, you know, we have, we have a bunch of people that I'll mention maybe later, uh, uh, through the previous hikes and stuff like that. So, uh, thank you, Alan. Well, let's, uh, speaking of, you know, sponsors and stuff, how about we go, into the monthly supporters like Chris Garabian, Eric Rosario, Jeff Jock, Tviki Ferrer, Mikey S, Henry Burmeister, John Comiskey, Summit Seekers, Desert City Radio, Betsy A, Denise W, Vanessa, and Jim C. Thank you guys for so much for supporting the show. Greatly appreciate it.

[00:20:28] And as Alan said, we have great sponsors of this show, like Outdoor Chronicles Photography. Molly from Outdoor Chronicles Photography specializes in adventure elopement and adventure couple photography in the Adirondack and White Mountains. She's an officiant for getting married, a licensed guy, but most important, she's a story maker. Molly won't just give you photos. She'll give you memories that last forever. Don't hesitate to get a hold of Molly on all platforms.

[00:20:53] Also, have you ever wanted to learn more about hiking or backpacking, or even just brush up on some of your old skills in the backcountry? You need to check out Triumph Hour Project. A hiking and backpacking school. Scott and Joe from the New Jersey Search and Rescue team have amazing backgrounds in Wilderness First Aid, Wilderness First Responder, and the Mountain Rescue Association. And they're here to teach you old and new skills of hiking and backpacking. They teach anything from first aid, map and compass, and many other skills to help you and others while on the trail.

[00:21:23] Check them out on the website and on all social media platforms. So, Alan. Before you go. Yeah, yeah. There's a person that you mentioned, Jeff Jotz. Yes. I have never met Jeff. He posts on my Facebook group, Dog Hiker, and his dog Orla. And I love his photos. I love the photos that he posts hiking. And I'm kind of hoping that I run into him sometime.

[00:21:51] So, I wanted to give him a shout out here. Yes, yes. I think we'll talk about him in these previous hikes that people have. So, we have a little session called, Are You Really Outdoors? Of course, through social media, if you mention the hike about the podcast, you tag us by typing at ITL Catskill MTM Podcast. And your hike comes up and we'll chat about it. So, first things first, Sloth Tramps. We're out in the Adirondacks. Somebody named Blake and Colvin.

[00:22:20] You know those hikes, Alan. You are very, very familiar with the Adirondacks, right? That's where I started. I was a guy that I worked with in my first job was the outings chair for Albany ADK. And he knew I was a rambler in the woods and I was a hunter. And he said, why don't you come on a hike? And I did. And then I went on another one.

[00:22:50] And, of course, my eyes are about this big watching the gear and the people and stuff. And he got me hooked. Nice. Nice. As we say. That's how I got my start. And the two sports coexisted for a while. And then hunting went by the wayside as I became an Adirondack nut. Yeah. I see that.

[00:23:15] I took over his role as Albany outings chair about three or four years later. And my committee, we put probably on average 200 outings a year out of Albany chapter. Nice. Wow. That's awesome. So, basically, I was either leading official hikes or I was, hey, you want to go? And we go do something.

[00:23:42] And what we liked about the Adirondacks, we started in the map and compass era. What we really liked was bushwhacking. We liked to do the peaks, the high peaks from different directions. And even the herd paths in the wintertime, you did not have what you have right now, which is basically a highway up them. Yeah.

[00:24:11] You could barely follow them. And when we were doing the winter 46, pretty much in the late 70s and early 80s, we were breaking trail on Saturdays and Sundays, even to the popular peaks. And we used to have to do a backpack to get the faraway ones, come in, stay over, climb, stay over the next night, and then hike out.

[00:24:39] And that was pretty much the only way you could do it. You did not have a broken trail or a route to find. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. That's where I started. And I was a complete nut every single weekend I was up there. And I had friends who I hiked with a lot, really, really lifetime hiking friends who also were hiking in the Catskills. And they bugged me for a couple of years.

[00:25:08] Hey, why don't you come down here? The Catskills are nice. Oh, you should try it. Why don't you come down? I know you're going up north on Saturday. Why don't you come down on Sunday? And my standard answer for at least a couple of years was, who wants to go down there and climb those little shit peaks? I'm embarrassed to say that now. But that was really my attitude.

[00:25:35] They basically dragged me out into the woods. And little by little, I fell in love with the Catskills. What I really liked in the Adirondacks, off trail, and I'm not talking about herd pads. Sometimes it's misery with the blow down fields and the hurricane damage.

[00:25:57] You know, I remember one of the saw teeth bushwhacks in the Adirondacks. We could see the summit. We started at 7 o'clock and came out at 9 o'clock at night. But we could see the summit probably two-tenths of a mile. And it took us an hour, an hour and a half to get through the blow down to get to the top.

[00:26:22] So coming to the Catskills was an eye-opener because all of the beautiful open woods, deciduous trees, even the conifers, you know, by and large are not. I mean, it's like a sleigh ride compared to Adirondacks. So you draw a root on the map, paper map, stick it in your pocket, and bushwhacking was like heaven. Yeah. Holy cow. Wow.

[00:26:52] This was so nice. So it went from there. So I started mixing in my Adirondack hikes and hikes in different parts of the northeast with the Catskills. And the last few years, I mean, I'm spending most of my time in the Cats. Yeah. And a lot of people are. And like, as we move on, Vicki, a hiker goddess adventurers, was getting ready for a hike up in the White Mountains. I think she's doing the presidential range. So good for her.

[00:27:22] Nigel, a.k.a. Feral Hollows, went up pack attacking on a muggy day. His viewpoint was very obscured by the haze. It was crazy. Joe J. Kaplow did Hook Mountain with Todd to cross off another on his New York State 28er list. Pretty cool stuff. I'll have that in the show notes, the New York Downstate 28er list. Check that out. Off in the Woods, Sean did the Blackhead range from Barnum to Colgate Lake with Steve.

[00:27:49] And then Steve, Environmentality, was up on Plateau on a hot and hazy day. And then did the Blackhead range from Barnum to Colgate Lake with Off in the Woods, Sean. Crazy. Todd Tebowl's Outdoors was up on Blue Mountain in the Adirondacks and also went up Cat and Thomas Mountains as well. So, Todd, getting all over the place. Those are beauties, by the way, in the Lake George area. I've heard Blue Mountain is incredible. It's fun. No, I mean Cat and Thomas. Oh, Cat and Thomas. Well, then there you go. And Blue Mountain is great, too.

[00:28:19] Is Cat and Thomas any part of, like, a patch or something? I can't answer that. It wouldn't surprise me if they are. They're fairly short, and it's really nice. Nice, nice. So, get up there and do that. Also, wow, we have a lot of people that are in the Adirondacks. Lisa Chaotic, Cozotic, did nipple top and dial for 29 to 46 for Adirondack High Peak. So, she's getting up there in the numbers.

[00:28:47] She's almost, that's more than halfway, actually. So, that's crazy. So, good for her. Speaking of some people that Alan knows about, Jeff Jotz and Orlo went up Bear Fort Fire Tower and got glimpses of the Catskills and Gunks in one direction and the Manhattan skyline in the other. I need to get myself, I need to get myself down in the Gunks and to see that. I am jealous. Not many people want to see the Manhattan skyline, but I saw it once when I was down in New Jersey.

[00:29:17] And that was at night. And it was one of the coolest things I've ever seen. And, I don't know, I got to get down there. I got to, it's too long of a drive. It's like two and a half, three hours for me. You can see from some of the Fire Tower peaks in the Adirondacks, on a really clear day, you can see Montreal. Nice. Oh, wow. Yeah, I've heard about that.

[00:29:46] And then I remember saying, Jim Hobson said one time he, at one of the Fire Towers, he saw the Blackheads from the Adirondacks. So, like. That's probably be Kane Mountain where he's his steward. Kane's a nice little fire tower. And I bet if he had a nice clear day, he could probably do that. Yeah. And, you know, I got to bring this up. Well, let me finish this and I got to bring this up. Because speaking of. No, no, no. I got to talk about the Manhattan skyline. So, Jeff Jotson, Orla.

[00:30:15] You're like, Alan, I'll hook you guys up so you can meet them. Um, Scott, Catskill Mountains Brew did the nine. And then the next day did Balsam Lake and Hawcott with Zorro. So, Scott, Catskill Mountain Brew. Look up Dog Hiker because you can post your stuff on there with Zorro. So, Scott hikes with Zorro all the time. He's got an awesome dog. And then last but not least, Andy, a.k.a. Brownski was out paddling on Lake Tortati. Tortati? Tortati.

[00:30:45] And Lake Welch and Harriman. So, speaking of the Manhattan skyline, I saw this article. I think it was on New York Up, Alan, that I want to say about you. Do you think from any of the Catskill Fire Towers that you can see the Manhattan skyline? Are you asking me? Yes, 100%. Most of the fire towers that I do most frequently is overlooked and it's too far away. You can see the Adirondacks from it.

[00:31:15] I've been a steward there and hiker there for years and years. But you can't, though. You can't see the Manhattan skyline. You can't even see it from Red Hill. No, you definitely can't see it from Overlook. I mean, maybe if you're on a low humidity day really early and a big telescope, you might. Big telescope. So, there's an article on this place that says you can see the Manhattan skyline from Hunter Mountain Fire Tower. And I was just like, I don't think so.

[00:31:44] That's even farther away, northernward than Overlook is. It's higher, but I wouldn't think so. Now, if somebody that I know told me that, then I'd believe it. But I wouldn't believe it just as sort of like a common knowledge thing. Yeah, it's no way. I was looking up stuff.

[00:32:12] I'm like, there's so many mountains that obscure the view of the Manhattan skyline. When I was in New Jersey, I saw like a glimpse of it. When you get further back in the gunks and the Hudson Valley, you can see it from a distance. But as far as seeing it from those little points from Hunter Mountain, like I said, Red Hill is further south than that. But it's shorter, but it's still closer. And it's a little guy. Yes. Yeah. So, I got to say, I will post that.

[00:32:42] Let me write that down. I will post that article in there and people can check that out because you cannot. Manhattan skyline. All right. So, Alan, are you having anything to drink tonight? I have not because I'm afraid of what I might say if I had a beer. I mean, that's okay. It got me going about the COVID hordes. Oh, okay.

[00:33:12] I'd probably make enemies. Okay. So, let me pop this open. Please do. Oh, boy. Nice. I have to. I like dark beer and I like draft beer. Okay. What's your choice? Like locally? Locally? What do you want to mention? Guinness, which is not local. Guinness on draft.

[00:33:36] And any of the dark porters, any time of year, that's on draft. That's my brew. Okay. Well, good. Well, I just cracked open a Hudson North salted watermelon cider, hard cider. Oh, I was afraid you were going to say it was Jenny Cremale. Oh, God. That was back in the days. Utica Club. Oh, my God.

[00:34:03] You know, I was just, I was talking to somebody about that the other day at work. I'm like, how bad is Utica Club? And he's just like, well, if you've ever tasted gasoline, that's probably the closest you'll get. I have to tell you, I went to Utica College and my, and I had fraternity brothers who were tour guides at the brewery. So on Friday, we'd go late in the afternoon, we'd get the, we'd get the brewery tour by, by one of our fraternity brothers.

[00:34:32] And he had a script and it was like, we'd sing along with his script because we knew all the words. And then you went into the, into the bar and they had draft beer for people who did that. So of course, you know, nobody was there because we did the last tour. So we used to drink Utica Club right out of, out of the draft. I can tell you this, and I won't get into too much detail.

[00:34:57] I've probably, I've probably soiled my shoes more times with recycled Utica Club that I've chucked up. Nice. I can remember. Nice. So you, I mean, we, we all, we all were, we all were at that stage in our lives where we had to, to, to drink the, the lowest on the totem pole possible. And I used to drive a motorcycle.

[00:35:23] I used to drive a motorcycle and, um, uh, uh, coming home from a bar. Um, I would never do this again. I, I, I'm lucky I'm, I'm still here. Yeah. Well, at least you admit it. You know what splitting lanes is? Yes, I do. I've seen all that. I saw it all in California constantly. I used to do that on, um, I used to do that on, on, uh, local, uh, expressways.

[00:35:50] And I, and I, I, uh, you, back then you could turn the light off on a motorcycle and I turned my light off and there'd be two cars next to each other. And I'd gauge, I'd gauge when they were far enough apart. And I'd turn the light on and gun it between the two, the, the two cars. Yikes. Stupid. Stupid. Yes. I will agree with you on that. I'm calling you stupid on that, Alan. Sorry. That's squid. Yeah.

[00:36:18] So, uh, once again, having a good old Hudson North, I got a good deal on this at my local Hannaford that it was like half off. So I bought at least eight, four packs. So I got to finish these up. So, um, previous hikes, Alan, do you want to talk about any previous hikes? I know you spend a lot of time at John Boyd, uh, Thatcher state park. Thatcher is 12 or 13 minutes away. Oh, nice. And there's, there's trails all over it.

[00:36:47] And then there's woods roads and there's mountain bike paths. So you can, you can, and it's not a big day, but it was that close to jump in the car. Toby jumps in the car and you're there in 14 minutes and you can pick up. It's not a, not a big deal, but you can pick up four or 500 feet of, uh, of ascent and you can, you can go places.

[00:37:15] You can go places and not run into anybody. Now, when I talk about Thatcher, I'm not talking about the, uh, the trail that goes under the cliffs of the kind of the tourist route, which is very nice. I'm on the other side of the road and there's a North and South Thatcher. And, you know, I've been hiking there for years and years and years. We used to go cross country skiing with our kids when they were little there and, uh, snowshoeing.

[00:37:43] Um, that's a, that's a terrific place. And I'm really fortunate. It's not wilderness, but you get in the woods and there's this really nice. Nice. Is that, is that where you've been? You want to chat about a local, local hike that are, that you've been up to? Like, what was your most recent hike? Um, and not to, not to belabor it. I, I finished up with Jim Hobson on two hikes. I finished up the Catskill 200s, uh, in October.

[00:38:13] We did one. And then the following weekend was the, uh, was the final. I, I'd had the, I'd saved those. I'd saved those last two for, uh, 10 years because I had done, uh, the hundred with our, our lab, Buka, and she had done, she had done, uh, uh, most of the 200.

[00:38:40] And, um, and she died tragically of without doing the last 20 or 25. And I scattered her ashes on those remaining ones much often with, uh, with Jim. Um, so, so I went and hurt myself. I went and hurt myself and, uh, in October. And the most I can really do right now is very easy short ones in Thatcher and hope to have

[00:39:08] that taken care of, uh, later in the summer. Yeah. Well, looking forward to hearing your adventures, you know, it's, it's good, good that you get out just at, at, in general, cause it's just, sometimes it's tough for people just to even get out on the local trails that are flat. And we're mentioning, and you mentioned, you brought up, uh, Jim. Jim is a good, is a good friend and a hiking friend. Um, and he, and he, he wrote the forward to the book as, as he should.

[00:39:36] I asked him to, um, Jim, uh, Jim is probably of anybody I know in the Catskills has probably hiked more of the Catskills and bushwhacked more of the Catskills than any of the, of the big name people that we see all the time doing stuff. His stuff is just incredible. Uh, he's been blue lining all the streams in the Catskills. I've been bugging him to do a book.

[00:40:05] I don't, I don't know if I'm going to be successful. Um, the Lost Hills, uh, came from him. We were talking about these, uh, um, these, these places and to use, and I wrote this down because I knew you were going to ask me, um, my Jim, my, my friend, Jim Hobson, he, he describes the Lost Hills as a lonely and isolated summit where a few people had, have trod has the charms that beg to be explored.

[00:40:34] So I stole the name with his permission and actually the manuscript had, they had, I think, two kind of crappy working titles. One was the Little Peaks, which, which my wife and family said, oh, that, that's kind of a cruddy name. And the other one I was, I, I stole from an article I wrote, uh, for Adirondack magazine

[00:41:01] about the, the small peaks and the Catskills. This was years ago. And they, and then, uh, the editor of the article suggested, why don't you call, why don't you call this the kitten skills? So until the Lost Hills came across from Jim, it was going to be the, it was going to be the kitten skills. Wow. That's it. Yeah. I've hiked several times with James and, you know, we've done crazy stuff together.

[00:41:29] I know you, you have with him, me and James have done some insane things together and, uh, I adore his passion for hiking. And he's an interesting company. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. He doesn't, he's like me. We, we never stopped, stopped talking. And the same thing, uh, uh, I've really missed, I really miss being out with him because our, our hikes are, are hiking and bushwhacking and, and, and always very interesting, uh, conversations.

[00:41:58] And I always look forward to getting back out with him. Jim was, uh, Jim was one of the people and not to talk too much about Jim because I'll, I'd end up embarrassing him. Um, he, he, he, he, he, as much as anybody, um, was, uh, a, uh, pioneer for some of the law skill books because he'd go, he'd go do something, something very interesting and he posted and we'd talk about it.

[00:42:27] And then, you know what? I think I'll go try that. And, and, and almost all of them were, wow, this would be a good chapter in the book. Yeah. Well, so he, uh, he wrote the foreword and he, and, and his, uh, his example of using the, uh, DEP website to look for really nice hikes was, uh, I talk about it in the book. What a resource.

[00:42:53] I mean, uh, the site is a resource, but Jim is too, besides being a good guy. Definitely. Definitely. Um, yeah, he's, he's, uh, he's a phenomenal human being. So, uh, follow him, but the ledge, the ledge finder. That's what I think. A ledge hound. That's what he used to call him. The ledge hound. Yep. He's, that's what I called him. And for years, for years, he has Mitch mismatched hiking poles. Yeah. I do the same thing. Me and him are very similar.

[00:43:22] Me and him are viewpoint kind of guys. And we have different, uh, hiking poles. I broke mine today. You know, I would take a look at that as Jim's favorite thing. And he dropped his hiking poles. So for, for, I can't tell you how many different times he'd come back and I'd hide his hiking poles. Nice. So we'd start out and then we go up something looking at his hands. Where's my poles? So it took him, I got to say this about Jim.

[00:43:50] It took him a number of times for him to catch on. Nice. Just leave him. He, he left him, but I hit him around behind the tree and he didn't realize he had he hadn't put him there. He's such a, he's a gem. He's, he's a Catskill legend. Let's just say that. Can I, can I give a little shout out to some of my hiking buddies in the Catskills? Really? Sure. Is that okay? Yeah. Yeah. I actually wrote these down because I didn't want to slight anybody.

[00:44:18] Ralph, Rob Stewart, Tony for Sandy, Mike Kudish, Jay Pelton. And those are people I've done lots and lots of hikes in the, in the, in the Catskills with. Yeah. All are good company. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. It's so today I went up actually like a couple hours ago. I went up Friday mountain. I was, it's been a long time since I've been up Friday.

[00:44:44] So I wanted to check out the informal trail and you know, I was just like, you know, I'm not going to use the map or I'm not going to use my, my phone or a map or anything. I'm just going to follow the herd path. I have to say like 99.9% of the time I could follow the herd path and I didn't get off golf of it. Like there's one or two times where I was like second guessing myself. Uh, it was like kind of towards like the rockier areas, uh, right, light, right in the middle.

[00:45:14] But, uh, other than that beautiful, fantastic day, uh, with nice little wind temperatures were perfect. Still sweating. What did I, the one thing, uh, there was a couple of things I want to bring up. Well, I tried, I got to the, I got to admit Alan, if anybody wants to try to like compare the, the whites to the, the Catskills.

[00:45:38] This is the hike to do it because there is so much gain and so much relentless, relentless up to this vertical madness, as we call it on the, on the podcast to Friday that it resembles a, a good old fashioned white mountain hike. Like, like, you know, you're going up Madison from, uh, the trailhead and it's just 3000 feet of gain.

[00:46:02] Like that's, I, I, I find Friday, a very similar hike to the whites of where the boulders, it's just shit all the way up. And, uh, as in terms of just the day was beautiful, beautiful viewpoint right above Ralph ramp, got beautiful views, got to have a good time on the summit. I signed in and then I was like, I'm going to bushwhack, you know, into the call and then find my way back to the viewpoint. I found the spot of where there was a forest fire last year.

[00:46:32] And, uh, I forgot about that. And I reached out to our Ranger, uh, rush, no Ranger. I reached out to Ranger Martin about it. And he was like, oh yeah, that was when we battled last year, like we did on, uh, low Iraqi. And, uh, he's just like, it wasn't really that much publicized. So it was a very small one, we got to it pretty quickly. And then on the way down, uh, back to the viewpoint, I must've tripped over something and I fricking went full forward. And then my hiking pole just snaps.

[00:47:02] I was just like, oh man, I hit my side, but it was fine. My, my shin's a little busted up, but I mean, what's a good bushwhack. If you go up Friday and there's no bruises, then it wasn't a good bushwhack. So it was, it was good time. Uh, beautiful views. Uh, once again, I haven't been up to Friday in a while. I wanted to see what the informal trail was like and it's super easy. And I've always, you know, it's, I've always wondered who owns that property. That's right at the base of that. Do you know?

[00:47:32] Um, I do, I do. And, and, uh, I don't really want to mention it here. Ralph is very, uh, is very protective of. Okay. The property here. Um, there's a, there's a certain meetup group that used to be really popular a few years ago. That. Oh, the Hudson Valley hikers. Yeah. They used to trespass over there.

[00:47:57] And, uh, um, I remember, I remember seeing pictures posted, um, posing on the porch of, of the camp. Oh, that's ridiculous. I just want to know. I just find that place fascinating. No, I can, I can answer that, but, but I, I wouldn't want to do that. Ralph is, Ralph has, is really good friends with the land. I mean, he's, his, his folks owned a, a summer camp in the moon. Huh?

[00:48:23] And he and his brother used to, used to climb, climb Friday and balsam camp, um, probably maybe dozens of times when they were kids starting 10 or 11 years old. Um, so they've been, they've been in there for a long time. So, um, I had a chat with him today, you know, I went out afterwards. I'm like, you know, right. Ralph was right down the street. I'm going to go and say, hi. I went and said, hi. It took him a second to realize who, who I was. Cause we haven't seen each other in a while.

[00:48:51] So you live near, uh, uh, you don't live near Shulkin, right? Oh no, no. I was, I was, I hiked on Friday. So he lives right down the street. I'm, I'm broad hall. You should ask them to take you to Snyder's. Oh yeah. Yeah. He, he's, he's Snyder's Snyder's tavern. It's, it's a landmark. Oh, I've been there many times. Oh, okay. All right. Oh yeah. That place is, is a landmark. It's not a landmark. It's the goddamn heart of the Catskills. I would say. Absolutely.

[00:49:18] You don't want to go in there and ask them for some exotic draft beer. Yeah. Right. You don't want to ask them for, for some IPA stuff. They give you Jenny or Jenny cream ale and that's it. And then hard liquor. That's basically their only selection. And they'll slam it down. And you just like, this is not ice cold. It's warm. That's what you got to do at Snyder's. Made at Snyder's. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we had a chat and we'll, we're going to figure out some time to go down and talk with him about his experiences and the Catskills.

[00:49:47] And then he said he was going to take me over to Snyder's and buy me a beer. And I was like a beer. Oh, like I'll take seven. Especially at Snyder's. But, but that was, that was a previous hike. Good time. I slipped and fell a couple of times. I got to say the rim trail is, is the rim trail. Like it's always been nasty. Just a lot of, a lot of, not a lot of blowdowns. It's, it's good. So, yeah.

[00:50:40] All right. still listening to the show. Greatly appreciate it. And you guys keep the podcast going. On Friday, June 19th, expect clear skies in the morning to rain showers in the afternoon and evening, a high of 58, a low of 48, and winds reaching up to 45 miles per hour, which brings the wind chill at night down to 32 degrees. On Saturday, June 20th, expect cloudy skies in the morning to

[00:51:08] rain showers in the afternoon and evening, a high of 55, a low of 45, and wind chills reaching down to 34 degrees in the morning. On Sunday, June 21st, expect clear skies in the morning to possible rain showers in the afternoon and evening, a high of 53, a low of 50, and wind chills dipping down to 43 degrees. It looks to be a great weekend to get out, so pack that rain cover because it might get a little

[00:51:36] bit wet in the afternoons. Just remember when you're out there to be safe, be prepared, and don't become tomorrow's rescue story. Back to you guys. Awesome weather forecast. Hopefully it'll be good for everybody this weekend. So let's get on to the last of the sponsors, and then we'll get on to Alan's big time on Inside the Line. What's up? Can I say one thing? Absolutely. Tim Luby,

[00:52:06] Catskill Hiker, is developing a hiker's weather forecast app. Listen to this guy. Thank you so much, Alan. That's awesome. So all right. So Tim Luby is designing a Catskill weather app. It's got a hold of me. I don't think I can use it yet because I have Android. Alan, do you have an iPhone? I have an Android. He asked me about that. It was designed for Apple, but I think there's going to be

[00:52:34] an Android version. He was just emailing me about it last night or the night before. And I'm looking forward to this. So I will let everybody know. I didn't want to interrupt you when you said weather. I wanted to tell you that. No, no. This is perfect because I'm looking for a dedicated Catskill app, weather app, because the stuff that we get is just blown out of proportion everywhere, and I can't find anything I can say that accurate. So Tim reached out to me and you as

[00:53:02] well. So we'll hopefully get this in the stages within the next couple of weeks and we can get a dedicated weather forecast to that. So thank you, Alan. Appreciate it. So cool. So cool. Let's let's get on the last set of sponsors and then we'll head on to Alan. So is it time for some new gear for hiking in the Catskills? Say no more. Camp Catskill in Tannersville has all your hiking needs, footwear, socks, moisture wicking shirts, freeze dried meals, Catskill merchandise,

[00:53:29] and more. They have all the essentials for your hiking needs. Located in Tannersville and online, check out Camp Catskill. If you want free stickers, send me a message because I got to get more free stickers to them. So yeah. Also, you need to check out another summit, a non-profit program that leads outdoor adventure activities for veterans and first responders for free. Outdoor adventures like walking, hiking, paddling, and even backpacking. We welcome guardians of all ages and

[00:53:56] ability levels, including those with accessibility needs. Our adventures are located throughout New York and the Northeast, and we organize transit accessible adventures throughout the Hudson Valley in the New York City area. Apply today on another summit.org. So how about we get on to the guest of

[00:54:14] the night? So tonight, Alan Villa joins us to talk about his new book called The Lost Kills. Now, if you have a good sense of mind, a good exploration sense of mind, you can imagine what this is about. This is about basically the lost areas, the secluded peaks in the Catskills, like Alan said before, what Jim described it as.

[00:54:40] And he has it out. He has it available for everyone. And let's first start off where you can buy this. Where can we get this book? Should, if the State University of New York Press Marketing Department is doing their job, and they usually do, you can get it in a variety of different bookstores.

[00:55:02] I don't always like to send people to Amazon, but I know a lot of people get it on Amazon, and that's a very quick and easy, very quick and easy way to get it. It's there. Local, like any local bookstores? Like, I know there's one, like the, something in Wyndham. Wyndham has like a, do you know if you have it there yet?

[00:55:23] I just, I haven't had the time to follow up on all the bookstores. I usually, with my last book, I usually dedicated 10 or 20 emails at a time separately, or phone calls to bookstores all throughout the region. I haven't had a chance to do that. I know the Golden Notebook in Woodstock has that. Nice. Okay, so that's a start. It should be in a variety of places. Okay, that's a start, definitely.

[00:55:51] If people can't find it in their local bookstore, jump on Amazon. Cool, cool. So that's the beginning of it. So how about, will you give a little background about yourself, Alan? Started hiking in the 70s, enthralled with the Adirondacks, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine. Friends, friends teased me about going to the Catskills.

[00:56:16] And I finally broke down and fell in love with them after having disparaged them as minor peaks for too many, too many years. And then you just jumped back, jump into the Catskills after, you know, did you, you were a 46er? And then you jumped into Catskills? Or was it in the middle of the 46ers that you went into the Catskills? Adirondack 46, winter 46, Catskills, then Catskills 3500 and 200s.

[00:56:46] Wow. Mixing it in with Adirondack hikes. And I kind of deserted the Catskills for some peak times because with friends, I was working on the ADK 100s. Nice. Oh, wow. Which are like the Adirondack 46 or the, on steroids, the bushwhacks on those are.

[00:57:13] Oh, I've heard your stories and I've heard what James' stories about those as well. The ADK 100 are fun and challenging. Are you sure about that? I'm actually the admin on climbing the Adirondack 100 highest. Okay. Okay. Crazy, crazy. So now you get yourself in the hike and you're into the Catskills.

[00:57:41] Now what draws you to the Catskills? What is your main reason of being like, wow, these places, this is amazing. The woods are, the woods are, are open. You look on a map, a real paper map, and you say, this would be an interesting way to do that. And anything, anything, anything that, in the Catskills, anything that looks like would go or be interesting, when you get there, it does. Nice.

[00:58:11] Really, that's the truth. It's a good way to say it. You pay your dues in, in blood and treasure in the, in the, in the, in the Adirondack bushwhacks, not the herd paths. The Catskill bushwhacks, again, not the, not the, even the Catskill, even the Catskill, even the Catskill, um, uh, canister or herd paths are, are, are, are simple and opening. And the woods are just beautiful.

[00:58:37] So I, my friends and I like, like doing the Adirondack high peaks and low peaks from, as bushwhacks and different routes. And we carried that over to the Catskills. Wow. And this was, when, when did you say that the, the nineties is when you started doing this stuff?

[00:58:56] Um, I think I was going to finish, I was going to finish the, the Catskill high peaks on Wyndham. Wow. On a, on a bitter cold day. And I'm trying to think maybe it was 1990 something on a bitter cold day.

[00:59:17] And all the people that I helped finish peaks in the Adirondacks and elsewhere, I had a measly two or three people who said, Hey, we'll go with you. And, and privately, mentally I'm grumbling. And I say, God almighty, I, I've broken trail and, and hiked with so many people. So I'm mentally grousing. Yeah.

[00:59:42] And, and, and we go up the regular trail on Wyndham and there's gotta be 12 or 15 of my friends who, who gone up there and shivered their asses off on a cold, windy day waiting for us. To go up there. Boy, talk about eating humble pie. Nice, man. That's, that's incredible. That was a very nice finish.

[01:00:06] So now with these back in the days, I mean, before we get into your book about the law skills and your other books as well, you know, I like to also, you know, chat with people, you know, I'm 43 years old. I started hiking in 2015 in the Catskills. I got to experience somewhat of the bushwhacking, you know, there were herd paths towards the top and stuff, but nothing to the extent of where you guys had it.

[01:00:31] You know, what was it like, you know, like, let's say you're doing big Indian and fur, you know, let's say, let's say you're doing fur. Like where did you, you guys just, just do it. You're just like, yeah, whatever. Let's go up from right here. The biscuit brook. If there was a, if there was a trailhead parking. Yeah. It's somewhat like that. Let's say there's a, on any of the peaks and there's a herd path up.

[01:00:57] We jump off, we, or it leaves a trail for a bushwhack. And I'm ashamed to say I haven't been on the, on the Catskill high peaks in five or six years. So I'd have to think about, I'd have to think about when you say big Indian or fur, I'd have to think about it because I haven't, I haven't been on them. Of course. The usual way.

[01:01:25] At any rate, we, we'd start out and look for a route as opposed to the trail. We, I don't even remember where we started. We did a, a, a winter bushwhack of Eagle after a big snow storm. And there's a, there's a trail, but we just bushwhacked straight up through 18 or 20 inches of, of snow.

[01:01:53] It was punishing, but it was fun. It was a lot, a lot nicer than following a herd path, in my opinion. So what, like, like, let's say you're going up to Cheryl, Cheryl, whatever you want to call it. Cheryl from Shaft Road. You guys have, you guys have no, it was just you in the mountain, right? There was no herd path whatsoever, right?

[01:02:19] Um, I don't remember, but, but, uh, uh, even still my, my trips there have been, have been off trail to, to, to, to Cheryl. Wow. Yeah. So no, I mean, the, the, the, and I apologize. I've spent, I spent a few years of mixing in, uh, bushwhack hikes to, to do all the hikes for dog hiker.

[01:02:45] And then almost abandoned the high peaks pretty much to do the, uh, 75 or 80 hikes in the lost kills. Wow. None of which go to, go to high peaks. Do they at least have viewpoints? That's my, that's my thing. I love viewpoints like Jim. Uh, what do you mean? Did they have, you, you talk about the lost kills? Yeah. Yeah. Like do some of them at least have you?

[01:03:14] Some do, but, but I can tell you, um, it's a, it's a lot of fun to go someplace where a lot of people haven't written about or done it. Um, and sometimes the woods are their own stars. Um, there's, there are places like on, um, um, I don't, I don't, I don't want to mention a particular hike and draw too many people toward it.

[01:03:40] There's a, uh, there's a, uh, an off trail bushwhack that Ralph and I did, um, that's got spectacular views and ledge views. And there are a lot of those, many of, many of the, um, the lost kills don't have, uh, uh, you know, bare peak summits. Of course.

[01:04:04] Depending on the season, depending on the season that, uh, that you go, um, you've got screen views. You go in the springtime. Um, I'm trying to think of, uh, of, of one. Well, let's, let's, before we get into that, let's chat about you were on previously episode 38 about your book dog hiker. So you have dog hiker, the catskill 67 and the catskill a hundred highest, right? Catskill a hundred, uh, the catskill 67 and dog hiker were the first two.

[01:04:34] Okay. Okay. So in between and lost kills is the third. Okay. Okay. Now, uh, several, you're several brooks out like, uh, the catskill 67, of course, is a very challenging one because we're talking about the lower peaks below 3500 feet. Correct. Yep. They're the, they're the next, the next group, the next group down to a hundred, 102.

[01:05:00] If you count the 30, the, the, the 35, uh, because there's some ties. Yes, there, there are definitely some ties and you need the book. The book is a, a, uh, actually a kind of like a, wouldn't say a legend right now. Uh, it's, uh, it's, oh God, what's the, what's the, it's a classic. So it's like hard to get. Um, I know people, I, I have read or heard about people who have stolen them from a copy from the, from libraries.

[01:05:30] Oh, wow. And, uh, and I don't encourage people to do that. Um, it's, uh, it went through two editions and it's out of print. Uh, I have a very small supply of my, of my own, like maybe eight or 10 of them. Um, I have, I happen to bring one along just, just to, uh, the, uh, Catskill Center. Uh, a couple of years ago had to have their, their, uh, uh, exposition.

[01:05:59] People sold stuff and books. And, and I was, I was manning a table with somebody else there. And I, and I, um, I think I brought dog hiker, but I had, I had one copy. And, and this guy kept coming back asking me, is the, is the Catskill 67 book for sale? And I said, no, I just brought it along and talked to people. And he kept coming back. Um, and, um, he, he said, how much is it?

[01:06:28] And I said, well, this is what the cover price is. And I said, but I'm, it's not for sale. He finally came back another time and he said, I'll pay whatever you want. And he bought it for $75. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I feel, and, and, and I'm, I'm embarrassed to even admit, admit it, but I didn't, I wasn't there to sell it. And I have no idea who the guy was. If it had been, if it had been a friend of mine, um, I would have probably just given him the book, but I didn't, I didn't know this guy from Adam and he kept coming back to the,

[01:06:56] to the table over and over again. And so, um, he wanted to buy it. So he, he bought it. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. I have it. You know, I, I have it. I bought it from you years upon years ago. I remember, uh, back. And you haven't, and you haven't bought the lost kills yet. I haven't. Well, that's only been out for like a couple of months, right? Yeah. Maybe a month. So it's exactly. So you, you like to go off trail and find places.

[01:07:26] There's going to be a ton for you. Oh, I guarantee, I guarantee, you know, I could, I mean. Some of them, some of them have, have like woods roads that lead there. Others are pure bushwhacks. In some cases, you've got to cross streams to, to, to get to the climb. Um, and there's some, uh, there's probably seven or eight easy trail hikes that are in there.

[01:07:55] Hikes that don't get a lot of attention, but are really nice. So, so I added them, I added them in as, uh, and noted them in the chart that talks about whether they're, um, on DEP land, DEC land, whether they're bushwhacks, whether they're trails or, uh, TB in the, in the chart means it's a trail and a bushwhack. Um, uh, some of these are, are, uh, like, uh, Shavertown is a really, really nice. It's nice one.

[01:08:25] And it's got the, the Kaiser, uh, kill overlook, which is beautiful, uh, beautiful spot when the leaves aren't on the trees. Yep. Um, and I want to give a shot. I want to give a shout out to the Catskill mountain club. Um, I'm actually a board member. Um, they really do, uh, they really do great work because they work with, uh, uh, DEP to put trails on DEP land and they're, and they got probably seven or eight and, and they're

[01:08:55] working on a, they're working on another one. They've got to go in, they've got to scout the route. They've got to have the DEP foresters and the resource people to, um, check it out, to be sure that it's not going through, uh, uh, uh, endangered places. If there's a stream, uh, they have to lay it out. So you go around it or you have to show a place where you, you know, can get across it without doing damage.

[01:09:21] So, uh, the CMC is a very, very nice organization. And like I say, um, Morris Hill is one that we hope to open before too long. Nice. I'll have to look into that. Definitely. I admit, uh, you know, I always mentioned the Catskill mountain club for volunteering opportunities and stuff like that. So that's, that's good. So now, uh, when, what, what made you start going like off trail to explore besides using

[01:09:48] trails and stuff like that, who influenced you to, to start pursuing this craziness? That's, I mean, that's, it's not like what it. No one just, just, just you. No, I, um, I, I've always felt getting there, getting there your own way is, is, um, more interesting, more interesting than just following a, a, a, a, a trail or a herd path

[01:10:16] that's been laid out by somebody else because you're going to get to see stuff that you wouldn't see on a trail. Um, a better likelihood of, of, uh, seeing, uh, wildlife. Um, and, and try and stay away from that stuff during the big game season, because you don't want to surprise, you don't want to surprise a hunter. Of course.

[01:10:42] Who doesn't expect you, uh, a mile and a half away from a trail to just come out, come out and come out in, you know, 40 yards away when he's thinking that might be a deer. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that's, that's always been, um, in, in, in the early days when the Adirondacks and when we all had the large green, uh, USGS topo maps, I used to study those things with

[01:11:08] a straight edge and a, and a compass with a base plate and, and in pencil on my, on my topo maps, I would, this looks like a good place to start. Okay. Take the ridge to take the bushwhack up to the toe of this ridge, follow this up and then pick up another ridge coming from the other direction. So I would, I would draw the pencil to here, pencil line to there, pencil line. Then I'd put the, the compass with the base plate on it and rotate it. And okay.

[01:11:37] That's the degree, the degree, uh, degree heading for this. And I'd write the heading and the, and the reverse heading on either end of it. I'd put little arrows and where it changed, I draw in the, I draw on the roots. Bear in mind, there was no such thing as, um, a GPS. And then I take, uh, I take, uh, I'd make a couple of photocopies of it. I keep a copy in my, in my, uh, in my, uh, uh, pants, upper pants.

[01:12:05] And then I have another copy in a Ziploc bag in the pack in case I ever, I ever lost it. So that's how we basically, how we basically did is we, we follow a route. And for example, if I was in the front, um, I'm, I'm keeping on the compass, Barry. And, and my friend, two or three of us or four of us, which, which often it was the, I'd be, I'd be following the route.

[01:12:32] And the person behind me, 10 feet would be say, Alan, kind of cheat a little more to the left because I wasn't, I wasn't going with the compass on my nose. I'd have it around my neck and I take a look and I, I look for the course of least resistance. And the number two guy would be, Hey, cheat a little more to the right, cheat a little more to the left. And, and that's basically how we, that's how we, how we did our bushwax.

[01:12:59] And in the wintertime, we pretty much did the same thing, except we'd switch off depending on how much snow there was. We'd switch off, uh, um, in one minute or two minutes or 20. And then the person in the front would step to the side and the three behind what, and the person in number two would take over in the front and I would fall into the back. Yep. I know those days.

[01:13:25] And back then in our, in our twenties and thirties and early forties, we were in tip top shape and runners and stuff. So we could do that shit. Sometimes number two person would complain, Hey, don't hog the, don't hog the lead. And you'd want to stay in the front because it toughened you up and made you a better, a better hiker. Instead of two minutes, you try and cheat and do three.

[01:13:52] The number two guy figured you were, you were cheating him out of his time in front. Crazy. Stupid. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. You know, when you're young, you're stupid, you're stupid young. So it makes sense. So now as, as a person, you know, I've, I've, I love going off trail. I just love doing it all the time. I am an off trail explorer. I, you know, we'll maybe take the trail up and then I'm like, eh, I'll take this. I'll, I'll bushwhack down.

[01:14:19] So we've all had horrible experiences off trail. So Alan, you have been an off trail adventure for decades. Now I need to hear about your most horrible experience off trail. Now with being in the Adirondacks, this could involve like, you know, I've heard horror stories about spruce traps, you know, and, and this like, what, what is your most horrible off trail experience?

[01:14:48] Well, you, you mentioned spruce traps and they weren't, they weren't horrible in the wintertime, but I, we used to bag the peaks on the, on the great range in the Adirondacks. So when we weren't hike day hiking or, or camping to get them, we used to reserve the Adirondack interior camps in the Johnsbrook Valley.

[01:15:13] We did that for probably 15, 15 winter weekends year, once a year and, um, uh, bring in beer, bring in wine, bring in food, you know, wood stove. I mean, it was, it was, it was great. You're in three and a half miles. Um, and I remember, I remember the, um, uh, always called the, um, spruce trap hot tub.

[01:15:42] We were on the, we were on the Gothic's Ridge. And, um, one of my friends fell, fell into a spruce trap and it was probably four or five feet. And he had one snowshoe hanging above him hooked up. Then, then another one came over to help him and he fell in and then two more fell in. And of course I'm standing off to the side, laughing my ass off and taking pictures as

[01:16:12] they're struggling. Every time they try to get out of the, this huge spruce trap, the edge would collapse and they'd fall in. Of course I'm having an absolute ball making, making fun of them, taking pictures. So that was not an emergency, but probably the, the, the, the, the two easiest, uh, bad ones were corneal abrasions.

[01:16:36] One was on a, uh, one was, uh, um, um, I think Ralph was on it and, uh, um, and about eight or nine other people, um, maybe balsam cap and fray. I don't even remember, but, but, but it was a, um, a trail without a lot of, uh, or a path without a lot of, uh, use. And I got a corneal abrasion and I, and I put one hand on my eye and blink and corneal

[01:17:04] abrasion is very painful because when you, when you blink the other eye, the corneal abrasion rubs, it's a, basically you're walking out of the woods and I, it was seven and a half miles, um, back, um, ducking branches with one hand and then getting back to the car at about, I don't know, seven 30 or eight o'clock at night and driving, driving home an hour and

[01:17:29] 45 minutes in, in, on, uh, with one eye in the dark. That wasn't fun. And then, and then I led an 80 K, 80 K trip in the Adirondacks and, and, uh, I wanted to go take a little quick break and I'm ducking through the conifers with, with my head down and I walked right into one of those dead spear branches, you know, the, the lower branches

[01:17:58] went right over my, and hit me right in the eye. So those were, those were too bad, but the, but probably the, probably the worst experience, uh, two friends and I were, um, did a winter backpack to, uh, the Sant' Noni's, uh, two of the, two of them, winter 46 and we, big packs, we, we had our tents all set up and, uh, we climbed, uh, Sant' Noni and then out to Coochie.

[01:18:27] And that's a long way out and a long way back. And it was such a beautiful day. I was taking, uh, uh, uh, shooting pictures with my camera and I didn't drink enough water, read enough water. And I started falling behind in the long recline back up to Panther. And, uh, they just assumed, I mean, these are people I've, I've just, I've hiked with and camped with for years. They just assumed I was behind them.

[01:18:56] And, uh, uh, I started getting chilled in the, in the wind and, um, above the tree line. And they were already following our, our tracks down through the deep snow that we had broken. And, uh, uh, I started, uh, experiencing hypothermia. Oh, I was, I was stumbling and falling and getting scoops of snow down my, and I get up and walk another two or three minutes and starting to get dark.

[01:19:24] Uh, they, you know, they're our confidence in each other. They just figured I would stop and taking pictures. Um, so I'd stop and, and rest two or three minutes. I stopped and rest. And then I started closing my eyes and I, and I started thinking, you know, you're going to close your eyes and you're never going to, you're never going to wake up again. I started thinking about my family, I got on my feet and got into the, into the, uh, where we were tented.

[01:19:52] And, um, and they said, I, I look like a, uh, a ghost. I was shivering. Yeah. And they basically, uh, they basically, uh, undressed me, put on all of my warm clothes and, uh, uh, stuck me in a sleeping bag with two parkas. I, I was so nauseous. I couldn't eat till midnight. And they, and, uh, um, so that was a, that was a close call. If I had been by myself, I would have died. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:20:21] That's why I don't want to go up the Adirondacks. I'm good with the Catskills, buddy. Thanks. They're all fun. Yeah. So thinking of the Catskills. So let's talk about your new book, The Lost Kills. What are the Lost Kills? What does this book pertain? As I, as, as I think I mentioned to you before, Jim, Jim Hobson said isolated and, and, and summits where few people have, uh, few people have tried.

[01:20:50] What has the charms that beg to be explored. Now, some of these go to, go to, um, uh, bigger peaks. Some of the, some of them are, some of them go to, to, uh, uh, peaks that, that people see from roads or on maps that, that they're not on the 35 list. Um, and, and, and doing some of these by, by bushwhacks is, there's a lot of fun, especially in the wintertime. It's a lot of fun. Okay.

[01:21:20] So tell me. Some of them go to mountains. Many of them go to mountains. Some of them. And I, and I actually say in the beginning of the book, um, uh, many of them have the name hill in their, in their name. And I said, uh, don't be fooled by the name because it's a hill. Well, this, uh, the small hill needs two and a half or three miles of bushwhack to get, get there. And if you go, you're on, you're on, you're, you're on your own.

[01:21:50] And cause it says, cause it says hill, it's still a bushwhack and you're not going to have, uh, you know, the Tom Sawyer yarn following the way in and following the way out. Now that's different if you're in the wintertime and you're on snowshoes, I, there's also a little bit in the beginning of the book, which is, uh, because, uh, uh, many of these are, are pure bushwhacks that talk about getting people, um, started on bushwhacking and how to do that.

[01:22:17] And, uh, some, uh, tips, uh, and, and some things and mostly begin with people who are, who, for people who, who consider herd paths bushwhacking. Not at all. No, this is, this is different. So basically what I said is practice with a map and compass. And I, I talk about that, take a map and compass course and the best way go with people, go with people who are comfortable, comfortable bushwhacking.

[01:22:46] And, and, and remember, uh, learn how to use a map and a compass. It doesn't mean you have to use it. You can still use, you can still use, um, your, your phone. I, I use, uh, I use the, uh, trail conference, uh, uh, map. A Benza? Um, on, on, on my, right, on my phone. And I also have Cal Topo, which is a fabulous. Definitely. Program.

[01:23:11] Um, so I'll, I, I got a pouch in my, on the outside of my pack and I'll pull the phone out and take a look at it. But I have the, I have the route on a, on a map in my pocket and I've got a compass and a, and a second compass in a different location. Um, and if I get jammed up, something happens in my phone, my phone breaks or I drop it or something. Um, I can find myself out of my way out of the, my way out of the woods.

[01:23:38] There's not a, it's not a sin to use, uh, to use, uh, your, your phone in a program. And I'm not talking about all trails. I'm talking about a good mapping program on your phone. Um, but, but don't, don't just, don't just rely on the electronics. It's a really good idea, even if you don't use it to practice. So you can use it if you get into a jam. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[01:24:04] I, I, I, and I told you how, uh, our, our, our little parade with three or four of us with the person in front on, uh, picking the, along the course of least resistance and the person in behind, Hey Alan or, or, or, or Hey Tom, bear a little to the left, a little left because, because they're on, they're on the, they're on the route, but with the, with the compass and I, and I, and I'm not walking in the woods like this.

[01:24:31] I'm looking, I'm on the compass bearing and I'm looking for the best way up through blow down or through path of least resistance. So that, I mean, that, that, that's what we did. Yeah. So when you were doing this, uh, how, what about the moment you realize that, that like one of these forgotten peaks, like one of these viewpoints, stuff like that was going to be a part of this book. What made you want to write a book about it? Some many, many of them that I'd hiked before over the years.

[01:25:01] And then I went back when I thought this would be a good one. And there are some, and there are some that, um, uh, this is not, they're not going to, somebody is not going to like this or the, or they're going to, they're going to put a contract out on my life for putting this in the book and making and having them say, oh yeah, let's try this. Alan, Alan, full disclosure. Freaking mind to, to put this in here.

[01:25:26] Full disclosure, the, the Catskills it's, it's the shit's already hit the fan. Like it's, it's, there's nothing that's going to be go crazy. So yeah. Sure. But I don't want to be, I don't want to be, I don't want to be the, uh, the person for example, for example, I almost was not going to do put it in the book.

[01:25:48] Uh, Jim had hiked Piney Point, uh, uh, which is, which is a name of where it is. And he had a good, good experience. I went and hiked Bushwack Piney Point, uh, maybe a year later. And wow, this is really nice. There's woods roads that goes up through, go up through the, the six and seven foot laurel on both sides.

[01:26:17] And then they peter out and okay. Now I got to look for a different room. Um, the, uh, the last, the last 200, 300 vertical feet from one of the woods road I picked up had, um, ceiling high rhododendron and just crisscrossed. Uh, it took me forever just to go the last couple of hundred feet. And I'm thinking, wow. And the top is beautiful.

[01:26:46] It's got the, the, the sedge metal, widely spaced hardwood screen views. Really nice. So, uh, Alan, let me, let me, sorry to interrupt you, but I mean, you say Piney Point this once again, there's people on the pod that listen to the podcast are the only ones that are dedicated. Like I got to admit where, where, where, where, where, where, where Piney Point road. So where we were talking, the book actually. Okay. You don't want to give it away. Like you don't want to like, okay, that's okay.

[01:27:16] They can do it. Okay. Liz Cruz. I got a, I got a shout out. She did a fabulous job with the maps. She did the maps on the, uh, dog hiker. She did the maps for the Catskill 67 and all of my articles. So I would, I'll just a quick jump off. I do, I do a route and I say, this is going to be a book one. I download the track. I put in points of interest and stuff. I send it to Liz. She looks at it.

[01:27:44] She, she puts it on a, on a, on a topo map and it goes back and forth between us a half a dozen times with no, no, move the point, move the view spot here, move this here. But so, so she did that at any rate, Piney Point. Okay. Done in Boyesville. It was misery to get to the misery, to get to the, to the top. And then I said, somebody will put a bomb in my car. If I put this in here.

[01:28:14] Now, let me try a different way off. And I went off in a other direction and, and cut down. I didn't mean Rota Denwins. I meant Laurel. And, and I found nice open woods on like a circular way back down until I picked up another woods word on the way out. And wow, this is nice. And what's nice is there are screen views, some beautiful screen views, especially if the leaves aren't on the trees.

[01:28:42] And the summit is beautiful with a, like a sedge meadow with rocks and widely spaced large trees. So by the time I, so when I, when I, when I did the write up, I warned people the direct way is going to be, is going to be not real pleasant. You're going to do this. Instead, what you should do is look for a DP driveway and then follow the woods road in.

[01:29:12] And when you get in, you can skirt around and then circle the way to the top. So how does that become a route? It becomes a route because it went from, it, it, it went from, oh, I can't do this. But then the summit area was so beautiful and their screen views, the way out became the way people should go and go in. If they disregard my advice and they go in and, and, and fight the Laura, well, that's up to them.

[01:29:43] I mean, you mentioned mountain Laurel, uh, any of the people that listen to this, uh, this podcast know that they don't want to mess with that shit more than once. I mean, me and I went up with, uh, Julie McGuire and, uh, um, Joe ferry up on guardian mountain. And we bushwhacked from one point to the other.

[01:30:05] And I would have to say, I've, I've never falling into basically a web of, of, of mountain Laurel and then been suspended in midair while both people are laughing at me saying, ha ha, you're going to get yourself. So I'm like, yeah, listen, I need fricking help. Come on. Like, get me out of here. It's hilarious. Slayer's dilemma.

[01:30:28] Ralph and Ralph and I, uh, did a, a bushwhack on South mountain, which is over near, um, uh, not the Kenderskill high peak, um, North South. Like, yeah, no, not, no, no, not North South. Like. Um, and there's a, uh, DP lane to go across a, uh, a small stream. And then there's a, there's a, uh, a bridge. That's the obvious way up. Well, this is beautiful.

[01:30:56] And Ralph Ralph had said, wow, I got to tell you, uh, he'd been up this thing at least once or twice before. He said, I said, no, Ralph, this will be fine. This is the, this is the way up. Oh my God. The Laurel. Um, so in the, in the, when I did it, when I did a Lost Hills chapter, I called it Laurel Ridge. And I also said, instead of taking the obvious, go across the toe of the ridge and then come around.

[01:31:25] And then the woods road go, the woods going up basically skirts, the skirts Laurel Ridge. Okay. Okay. So that, that makes sense. That makes sense. So now, uh, why are these like the Lost Hills? Why are they important? Why did you feel like you need to write a book about them? Um, for the same reason of the, the Catskill hundred, um, give a break, give a break to the,

[01:31:52] the pounding that the trails are taking, you know, the 35 are taking. Um, and for people who like to, um, do something a little different talking about the hundred, go do, go do the hundred. It's a, it's a worthy achievement, even though they weren't 3,500 feet. There are a ton of fun. There's a bunch of really, really nice, nice ones there. You get to, you get to explore.

[01:32:19] Or you get, you, you, you get to be able to think to yourself. Now I'm really understand the Catskills because it's taking me to places away from the 3500 peaks or adjacent to, um, and the same thing with the Lost Hills. Um, you get to, you get to see things and experience things that are different than just up and down, up and down, up and down a trail or up and down, up and down, up and down a herd path.

[01:32:49] Um, uh, for people who want to find something that's a little different, that maybe tests them a little with navigation in, in some cases, some cases that navigation isn't, isn't an issue. Um, the, the Lost Hills will take you to different places. Many of them, uh, Torren's Hook, for example, most people don't even know where it is.

[01:33:15] Uh, it's said that the, uh, the Native Americans years and years ago used to do, uh, tribal, uh, burial dances on what's called Dancing Rock along the summit. Um, so, um, how many people, how, how many people know where Torren's Hook, T-O-R-R-E-N-S Hook is? I don't know. You gotta admit. You can look it up.

[01:33:40] And, um, so there's a, to, to, uh, to get on it, you have to, you have to look for the, the 10 foot wide right away. The, the, where the, DC's got a little blaze of paint and a little pipe that I describe where it is. And, and you have to, you have to skirt, skirt, uh, private land along the side. And the beautiful, beautiful woods along the top.

[01:34:07] Um, the lost kills, the lost kills actually have a picture of my friend, Mike and I, I don't know. Mike, is it Mike Cantwell? Mike Cantwell. How about you get him on the goddamn show? I have been trying for, since ever I started this to get him on the show. He's a really nice guy. Ah, I gotta get him on here.

[01:34:33] Cause it's Catskill Mountaineer was like, is like the pioneer of, of like establishment of the Catskills. He's done a, he's done a bunch of lost kills with me and, and, and other hikes. He's showed me places. He was the first person to take me into some, some places that, that I had never heard of before. Smart guy. Knows his, knows his stuff. Actually, he's, he's over in Montana right now.

[01:34:59] If you want to get in touch with him, he'll be back probably in maybe another two or three weeks. Okay. Okay. Do you know how to get in touch with him? I do. I got through Facebook. I got through him. So, so we'll see. If you have trouble, let me know. All right. Thank you. So, um, there are so many places to explore in the Catskills. We're not just talking about high peaks and stuff like that.

[01:35:24] What made you choose these ones in the book to, to represent the lost kills? Um, off the beaten path, not hype, not high peaks, not high peak roots. Um, some are, some skirt or come near and something different. I mean, I, as you mentioned, I've been hiking for a long time and, and, um, um, I w I would

[01:35:53] get bored doing the, the same thing all the time. And I know a lot of people, a lot of, a lot of my good friends, um, uh, have the dedication and the stamina and the control to do the grid. I could, I could never do that. And I won't mention a person's name, but a friend of mine, a good friend of mine who, who's, uh, done the grid at least a couple of times, um, talk about, uh, getting out of work late in the afternoon.

[01:36:24] And he's got two more days to, to, to get the grid peak before the next month. He's got all the other ones except two this month and been working like a, working like a dog during the day. And it's humid and hot, maybe rainy and going to do it. I respect the, the, the dedication, but that's not, I, uh, I would not, I would not want to do that. And listen, I'm the worst listener.

[01:36:52] I got lists for Adirondacks and New Hampshire and Catskills. Um, but they have to do it on a, on a given day because otherwise you're going to wait for another year to get to the month. You know what I'm saying? Oh yeah. That's not for me. I've got a different mania. But so basically these were once again, off the beaten path, uh, middle of nowhere.

[01:37:19] Some of them, some of them are going to be like, uh, I don't want to mention particular ones are going to be like woods roads that kind of peter out and, uh, uh, and to, uh, fine, finally less defined woods roads that, that go up. Okay. Others are going to be, you're not going to see, you know, others you're, you're going to get on a, you're going to come up onto the ridge and you're going to find that there

[01:37:46] used to be a homestead somewhere in the area and you, and you're going to follow a stone fence or an old, old cow path that gets you up before you change direction again. Um, but getting, getting on some of these, these places that, um, without, without seeing a lot of people and seeing stuff and being the remember or tell people about, you should

[01:38:11] see the views or like on Piney Point, you should see the freaking meadow, how beautiful it is. So we are talking about views, not just the views of the Catskills, but views of the, the woods and the forest. Oh yeah. I mean, there's, I mean, places where the, just the ledge bands are spectacular. Right. I mean, it, it expands your, it expands your, your perspective on what's really neat.

[01:38:37] Um, everybody loves getting out on an open ledger, you know, Rocky summit looking in every direction and you can do that anytime, but sometimes you find these little gems that have these, these meadows or the, ah, those meadows, but it's, you know, the sedge is like this. The trees are, are, are spaced 10, 12 feet apart. And it's like, I hope this goes all the way like this. Yeah.

[01:39:05] You're just, it feels like, like, like I would, I would say heaven. And that's what it feels like, you know, going to when I once bushwhacked up from, um, the wagon wheel to, uh, the little knob, uh, up there that felt like that. It just felt like heaven on the whole way up because it was just so open space. And there was a ledge here, a ledge there. You're just like, wow, you appreciate everything. When, as you're kind of like dealing with these high peaks, sometimes you're just battling

[01:39:34] vertical gain the whole time. And you're just like, ah, and sometimes you've got to listen on some of these where you're steep and it's, you're coming through stuff. Um, it's an effort. Um, some of these, some of these I adopted from, uh, Jay Pelton's, uh, scary 19. Oh, so there's a few of the lost kills that are on the scary 19 list. You know what that is, right? Of course. Scary, scary, scary, scary, scary. Yeah.

[01:40:00] So, so there are, there are a few of those there even, so the geography of this, uh, even though the, uh, the mountains of Skahari County are not in the blue line, the terrain and the mountains are, are pretty much very, very identical. So there are ones that, that go up, go up to there and there's a bunch that go over to

[01:40:25] the, uh, parts where most people don't hike over in, in Delaware County. Yep. In Delaware County has got some absolute, just beautiful gems. Um, and they don't get hiked. They don't get hiked very often. Um, cause they're too far away from people from New York city and stuff. That's what I see it as. Yeah. And it, and it can be, but you know, you know, you can get over there on 28 and, in three inches and stuff.

[01:40:53] It, it depends on which, and what you want. So instead of, um, instead of an eight mile, an eight mile hike or 10 mile hike in the Catskills, you do a six mile hike over on the, over on in, in Delaware County. And if you count the road miles and the time you take to get, uh, or the hiking trail on the bigger peaks and the, the shorter peak that's, that's, you know, 1200 feet and not

[01:41:24] 2300 feet. Um, and you get some place where very few people, very few people get to visit. So people, there's a menu people. There's a, there's a trail finder map that Liz did that, that shows the, all of the, all of the lost kills with little names on them. And then the, the, the book is divided in North, South and West.

[01:41:51] And each section has its own, its own map with the, with the, um, you know, 15 or 20 peaks on that map for the, for the region. And in that region are the, are the, is the chart with the peaks in each peak in the description. Interesting. So now in your opinion, uh, with, and also the lost kills and stuff like that, what separates a good bushwhack from a miserable one?

[01:42:20] I mean, I mean, when you and I both know that the answer is seasons, I would say seasons, you know, like, you know, we're talking about full on summer. You don't want to go to some of these places where it just has full on thorns and shit and the navigation, you know, like I, I love bushwhacking through ferns that are higher than you because that just feelings feels like magical, but the fern glades, yeah. They had just, you know, some of those areas over, you know, we're talking about the Western

[01:42:50] Catskills had those fern glades that reach above your head and it's, it's really not that easy to see your next spot, but like with, with your, with the lost kills, you know, and your experience in the Catskills, what separates a good bushwhack from a, an absolute horrible one. If it's a horrible one, you're, you probably won't see it. I know you won't see it in the book. True. True. You don't want to promote that shit.

[01:43:17] I mean, from a standpoint of somebody who writes a guidebook, if there's, if there's, if there's really challenging stuff like Piney Point, if you go in, you go, you're going to have, you're going to have a crappy, you're going to have a crappy up if you go the wrong way on Piney Point. And then you're going to get to the top and you're going to say, wow, the meadow is beautiful

[01:43:42] and the views are beautiful and the sedge is beautiful. But what a pain in the ass it was, get there. So if you don't, if you don't follow the, some advice, you're going to suffer. That's going to be a bad, that I would say the way I went up Piney Point, um, the last, the last quarter of the way that would have never made it in the, that would have never made it in

[01:44:07] there because I don't want people putting the bomb on my, um, the fuel tank of my car. Uh, but discovering a really nice way out, which becomes a really nice way in, then that's a, that's a really nice way. And I, I know I'm not answering your question. No, I mean, uh, you know, it's, it's a really, really buggy day when the, when the flies are bugging you or, are, are biting you. Um, you know,

[01:44:34] especially the deer flies biting you through your shirt, sweaty shirt. Um, you know, uh, you get your personal fly. You ever have you get your personal deer fly? Oh, this horse. When, when one follows you and every time you turn around, uh, the corner of your eye, you see, you see them, you know, a little trick about that. Don't you know what you do is when there's, when you have

[01:45:01] your personal fly, your hiking buddies is, is, is up here. So what you want to do, let's say he's up on a, you know, four feet higher up. What you want to do when you have your personal fly is you want to find an excuse to go up and talk right next to him. Hey, let's take a break here and get some water. And you, and you walk up and stand next to him and the fly doesn't differentiate. It's following the heat and the sweat. So as soon as the, as soon as your personal fly

[01:45:32] gets attracted to your friend, you get away, you get away from it. Now, now they have their personal fly. Wow. That's, I mean, I'm going to use that now. Thank you. In the, in, in doing the, in doing the Adirondack hundreds, the deer flies can be horrendous depending on the time of year. And, um, two of my friends after a few hikes, after a few hikes, bushwhacks, they, I wondered why

[01:46:00] they were hanging behind me while they were hanging behind me on the way out on a, on the woods road, the last couple of miles. And it was because they saw the deer flies around me and they didn't want to get up close to pick up. Jeez. Oh, that's right. As bad as the flies you think you can get down in

[01:46:21] the, in the Catskills, uh, you get up, you get, you get a humid muggy day in the Adirondacks in June and the, in the, the deer flies and the horse flies, the horse flies, the ones with the big green eyes, they bite you right through the, the sweaty t-shirt. I've heard. And it hurts. I've heard

[01:46:44] Vermont is relentless with its horse flies. Quick, quick, a quick diversion. Adirondacks. You want to see really, really nice Adirondacks without, without, without the super long view to go way up north, the Lake George region. People, people talk about, Oh, Lake George, it's all tourists. The little peaks around Lake George, they're beautiful. The woods, usually you can walk with your arms out on the

[01:47:12] bushwax without hitting trees. Nice. And my friends, my friends and I, who, uh, I did the, the hundred with, uh, um, um, I wrote the forward, his, his guide to the Catskill hundred highest. Uh, we talk about on some of

[01:47:36] the, on some of the, uh, uh, hundred bushwax that are not in the Lake George area. We talk about really, really nice woods. We cause the woods around Lake George are not thick. The bushwax are like a treat and a picnic. A dream, right? I thought so. I said, I still do. So you got the views. Go ahead. Sorry.

[01:48:03] So, uh, are there any places in the Catskills that you think should be remain difficult to find? Like, like this can be a yes or no, or it can be kind of like, you know, I'm going to answer that with a response that most people know of, but, but, or you can just say yes. No, I'll say this. Um, and it's the same with the, the Catskill guidebook,

[01:48:32] the Catskill 67 guidebook, not the case with dog hiker, cause they were all trail peaks. There was a, a certain amount of trepidation after I wrote, after I wrote, um, the Catskill 67 about introducing a lot of places that people don't go. And I, and I thought about that a little

[01:48:54] bit with a, with the, um, uh, lost kills. I remember when I remember talking to Neil Woodworth when he was the, uh, president of the Adirondack mountain club before he retired. And one of the reasons, uh, he wanted to publish the Catskill 67 was he said, the high peaks in the Adirondacks are getting a snot beat out of them. This will, this will, this is going to spread out.

[01:49:25] But this, this will spread out in the, in the Catskills. It will spread out the, uh, attention away from just the high peaks. And I sort of feel the same way about, uh, the lost kills. Um, I think it'll attract, uh, readers. I do have a little bit of trepidation. I already had somebody

[01:49:46] who, uh, who, uh, I, I moderate the lost kills Facebook group. And, uh, uh, I had somebody come on there and, and, and, uh, make a comment about implied hypocrisy about, uh, about the book coming

[01:50:07] out. And, um, it was snarky and I, and, uh, I think it was, I think it was, um, it would have been better if he wanted to talk about it like we're talking about it right now instead of, instead of, uh, trying to embarrass me. Um, so he's no longer a member of that forum. Interesting. Yeah. Why? I mean, just keep it to yourself, man. That's ridiculous.

[01:50:37] This is not, uh, the lost kills, the lost kills. I hope get a, a nice audience. Uh, not because I want my dollar 15 royalty for a book. You don't get written. Believe me, the, the, the, the gas mileage in the gas cost of wear and tear, uh, you don't make money on a, on a guidebook. It's a lot of fun to do. It's a great hobby. And I, and I hope what it does is it turns in,

[01:51:02] turns a lot of people into trying other places instead of the same routine over and over and over again. And, and if, and if that, if that, if, if that's accomplished with a number of people, then I would have, uh, I would have, uh, I would, I would feel really good about that. Okay. Good. Yeah. I mean, hopefully, you know, this once again gains traction and stuff like that.

[01:51:28] But I'm looking forward to, to reading it and stuff and purchasing it. Um, are there any lost kills now, you know, we got a lot of people that are on the show that, you know, of course that you, you've heard from their experience with their previous hikes, um, that are gritters and such. So would you say that any of these, uh, your points in the lost kills

[01:51:53] have, uh, that rival the 3,500 peaks in what way? Like you're not going to get, you're not going to have a view. You're not going to have a view on most, on most of these or the vast majority of these. You're not going to have a view. You're going to get on the top, like the sound of music flowing through your hair and 270 degree view. If there were ones like, if there were ones,

[01:52:23] many of those, they would have been discovered a long time ago. Of course. Um, this is a book for people who want to hike something a little different and, and there, and, and even the, even the, the custom topo maps that Liz produced. There's not a track log that follows all around the description

[01:52:45] you park here. This is, you should head into the woods and try and keep, try and keep to your left as you go downhill to across the stream and then follow the open wood straight uphill until you hit a ridge. And the description is more, is more than this. And then just follow the ridge all the way up to the summit. When you get up there, you're going to see this. You're going to see that if you

[01:53:13] go over a little farther over, you know, a quarter of a mile over here, there's going to be these kind of views. Um, be sure to check out, be sure, be sure to, to go over towards the cliff, the cliff top and peek through the trees for the views. So there's that kind of stuff. Interesting. But, but, but yeah, um, uh, there are some, the many, many have really nice views, but, but if they had, if

[01:53:42] they had, uh, views like, uh, pick one with pick a, uh, a Catskill high peak. Westkill. Okay. A lot of school that had the, the, the two opposite side of the trail views like that would have been discovered years and years ago. Of course. These will have their own charms, their own views and, and, um, and they're for, and for people who like to explore or want to break out from what they're

[01:54:09] doing, I think, um, they'll find it very satisfying. Yeah. And that's, I was going to say that satisfaction. Um, and, and, and what I, what I also hope, because there's enough information at the beginning about starting a bushwhacking, what I, what I hope is some readers will be converted from

[01:54:33] being comfortable doing herd paths to, to now being comfortable to explore on their, their own, the lost kills and everything else that they do. And maybe like, like we've done. And some of my other friends have done bushwhack routes to the high peaks. And I'm not talking about herd paths going from completely different directions, uh, following a stream and doing this and then popping out on the,

[01:54:58] popping out on the top of Balsam Lake mountain by, from a complete bushwhack route. That's a lot of, that's, that's, that's a lot of satisfaction. And I'm kind of hoping people who read this book, enjoy, enjoy this and can also translate it to wherever else they hike. I mean, I've, I, I'm pretty sure a lot of the people that listen to the podcast are, are dedicated to the, the mountains and such that they wouldn't actually purchase this book and this would be

[01:55:28] something of their interest. I hope it, um, I hope people enjoy it. I'm sure a lot of work went into it. There's a lot of detail. Every hike will, will tell, will give you the mileage elevation gain and, and there'll be one to five ratings. There'll be one to five ratings for the, for the, um,

[01:55:50] route navigation difficulty, bushwhack difficulty, navigating, uh, views, ease, um, and also the best season to, uh, go across. There's one in particular that I'm thinking about that you, that you want to go in a dry spell because you've got to get across a, uh, uh, a stream that, uh, you got, you got to rock hop and find your spots and, and, uh, you're, you're not going to be able to do that unless, uh, and I talk

[01:56:19] about that, about going after it, it hasn't been raining for, you know, a couple of weeks. Nice. So, I mean, I look forward to this and, uh, you know, I've once again, thank you for joining us tonight, taking your time out to talk about the law skills of your book, your new book that I will have in the show notes that you can purchase. And then, uh, once again, if you're around in the, the areas, any areas that has books, you know, I know Wyndham has a, a certain place. I know

[01:56:47] Tannersville has a, uh, kind of like a bookstore down there. And then Woodstock has, uh, some places as well. Check out around there for the law skills book, Alan via, and you can get it on and you can get it on Amazon and you can get it on Amazon as well. That'll be in the show notes because that's the only link that I have for this. So, uh, last question, Alan, uh, post-hike bruising bites. What do you want to yell out for your post-hike bruising bites that you like to do after you

[01:57:15] explore one of these lost kills? Snyder's Tavern. Ah, the best. Do you know somebody, I, the, the, only the dedicated people will suggest that. And I, Westkill Brew, uh, Westkill Brew, uh, brewery is a good place too. Yes. And I admit that everybody's got to go to, everybody's got to go to Snyder's at least once because it is amazing. And I, I've, I'm going to

[01:57:42] try, I'm going to try, I'm going to talk with the, with the, with the, of course, Ralph knows whoever owns that, uh, that place. I'm going to see if we can get a live broadcast going from there. One little, one little quick thing. I'm really careful about, really careful about, um, the post-hike, uh, always nice to be going with somebody else because I, I usually try and limit myself to, to one beer because I've got a, you know, a drive home. Of course. Of course. I think I'll,

[01:58:12] I'll, I'm pretty sure most of these people are responsible on that. Listen to the podcast. Very much. They just, most of them just want to get home and get, they get back to civilization, go to sleep because they've backed out three or four peaks of that. So that's crazy. And then plus with being honest with doing some of these lost kills, probably you would just want to get the whole home and, and nurture your goddamn wounds that you have from going to the mountain Laurel

[01:58:38] or the, the thick fricking, like, at least there's no poison Ivy, but you gotta let there, there's probably some nettles among these areas. Right. Well, the, uh, the, the, um, what's the, what's the Japanese invasive? I got a fucking Japanese, not weed, not weed. There's one, there's one thing that you gotta negotiate, um, tall brush and not weed to get maybe a couple of

[01:59:07] hundred yards to get to the stream. You got to cross to climb the peak. And, and, uh, it's a delightful hike, but, but I do not like not weed besides what it's doing. And I brought that up, you know, I was thinking about that on my way home, uh, my drive home today. I was thinking about the knotweed. I'm just like, they have to, you know, stop, stop focusing on the, uh, the giant, what is it? Hogs, hogs, hogs, hogs weed. I know what you, I know what you mean. The one that burns you that

[01:59:35] you, that nobody hardly ever sees. They gotta, they gotta stop focusing on that. And they gotta focus on the Japanese knotweed because that is just killing our streams. You, you, when you drive, you can see us in the fall or in late summer, when the flowers are out, you can just see how much it is. I read someplace that, uh, in, in the UK, you can't sell a house if it has knotweed on the property.

[01:59:59] Oh, nice. And, and, and to try and get it out, you can't just pull it out. You've got to dig down and get every tendril of root to, to, to get it out. Cause if you leave anything, then, then it sprouts and continues. So it's, it's horrible because for people who want to get the streams or see streams that just impossible. Absolutely. And good for them because that is, uh, it's a

[02:00:29] bitch and you know what, uh, we should take crazy actions against that. So, uh, so la once again, thank you, Alan, for joining me tonight. I really appreciate it. And, uh, you know, hopefully all success with the lost kills book. If you can get it by it, because once again, it's one of those gems that we have in the Catskills and Alan, once again, uh, is a gem that we have in the Catskills. And I appreciate for joining us tonight and, uh, have a good night and, uh, we'll hopefully get with

[02:00:58] you in the future, sir. Send, uh, send a, send me an email link to the show when, so I can look at it on, uh, or listen to it on Friday. Okay. Excellent. So have a good night, Alan, and I will see you in the future, sir. Pleasure. Yeah. Pleasure's mine, buddy. Hey everyone. I just want to thank you for listening to the show. If you enjoyed the show, subscribe and throw down a smooth review on

[02:01:26] Spotify, Apple podcasts, or any podcast platform that you use. You can also check daily updates of the podcast, hikes, hiking news and local news on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and the official website of the show. Remember this, you gotta just keep on living in the Catskills, man.

[02:01:51] L-I-V-I-N. Wicked, wicked, wicked, wicked.