Episode 233 - Fire Tower Updates with Laurie Rankin

[00:00:29] The bushwhacks were some of the worst days I've ever had in the mountains, or life, really. Whereas Pantsy Mountain is totally opposite, it's a mountain on top of a crater. I think the weather challenges on this incident were particularly difficult. It improves the development of New York State. Catskills will respond to it.

[00:00:52] You're listening to Inside The Line, the Catskill Mountains Podcast. Alright, alright. Welcome to Episode 233. Yes, I messed up last time. Sorry.

[00:01:16] Tonight, Laurie Rankin joins us and talks about more Fire Tower Updates, the good and the bad. So, like, hopefully we won't go too in the bad, but you never know where this podcast is going to go. We go in every sort of direction. Tad knows that. Yeah, there's, my sense is there's not a lot of good things to say about the news that Laurie has brought with her tonight.

[00:01:44] True. There's a bunch of other good topics, you know? Yeah, well, and that's not a reflection on her. She's just the messenger, if you will. Yes, unfortunately. Stay tuned. Hear all about it. Yeah, welcome, Laurie. Good to see you again. You too. This is your third episode. Yeah. That's good to have you back on. So, once again, forgive me for the episode mess up last time. I started off and said 233. It was actually 232.

[00:02:11] My bad. Tad wasn't on there to crack the whip and say, hey, you got it wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I want to once again say that we have a live show going on this Sunday, August 16th at Bel Air Ski Center for the Climate for Climate race. We'll be starting around eight o'clock because the race starts around 830. It's pretty early. But, you know, once again, I'll probably be there at like six o'clock. So, just to set up and make sure everything's correct.

[00:02:41] It's going to be a little weird. I'm going to say this because we are not going to have a PA system projecting the out into the crowd. Amy said they tried that last time and it was, it didn't work out. So, it's definitely going to be different, but I'm going to have a Zoom link and I'm going to have my laptop recording everything and have a Zoom link. So, if anybody wants to just chime in where they're at or maybe she said something about the Bel Air Ski Center putting it on their TVs and stuff.

[00:03:10] So, I mean, we'll see how it goes. This is once again, just one thing that like, I was just like, fuck it, let's do it. Like, why not? What's going to be the worst that's going to happen? We're going to sound like crap. It's going to be cool. And we're going to hear people doing, you know, 18, 15 mile race and having them finish in three hours, which is insane. So, also, once again, I'll be putting a Zoom link out there sometime. If you need it, if you're interested, let me know. I'll also put it on their thing.

[00:03:39] Also, I wanted to throw out there that there are shoe donations going on. Gently worn, used or new shoes are accepted for donations for the Sneakers for Good. Funds raised from the Sneakers for Good will program. We'll go to the Catskill Center for the climate for, oh, excuse me, climate event. So, pretty cool stuff. Tad, I thought of this the other day. I think what we should have done was gotten your Jeep all packed up and taken it to the top and had the broadcast at the top.

[00:04:07] Do you think it would could withstand that drive up to there? That's pretty easy. Yeah. Depends how wet or dry the surface is, but that's, you know. It's a walk in the park. Yeah, it's made for going up stuff like that. The problem is I haven't driven my Jeep since I pulled it into the garage after tearing up my shoulder. Wasn't something also wrong with it? What happened with it before that you said that you had to change, you had to fix?

[00:04:35] You know, every few years I replaced the starter. Okay. Because with all the salt they put on the roads for some reason, my starter rots out. And I did that this spring, put a new starter on it and some other things. It's up there in mileage. So, you know, I keep up with it, but I'll say for the last 10 weeks, it hasn't moved an inch. Okay. Okay.

[00:05:02] Do you think now with Lori, probably you've been up LR ski center and then Tad, do you think the Tesla could make it up that? Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Enough work, enough hard siders. You wouldn't even have to leave the parking lot mentally. You'd be at the top summit of that mountain with like a pair of skis on driving your Tesla. Wouldn't make any difference to you. Nice. Nice. I don't know. I was thinking about that. I'm like, wow, we could have, they have power up there.

[00:05:32] You know, we could add it like at the top and, and it had the PA system going and people running by and just yelling at them and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where the best place is to have that. I don't know what their setup is for the event, but it sounds like a good thing. I've heard a lot of people talking about it and you know, it's a great cause. Hopefully it's not too little too late. Uh, you know, climate for climate. It's also a good thing.

[00:06:01] Good thing to donate shoes and sneakers. That's worthwhile, man. A lot of people walk around without appropriate footwear on. So yeah, sir. I got a whole thing of that, that I'm going to bring along and see what I can donate. Cause yeah. Yeah. Uh, so cool. And then I'm, I'm running a, uh, down here stosh. I'm running a fundraiser. Uh, but you know, you hear those can a thons where people donate canned goods. Uh huh.

[00:06:28] So down here I'm having a, a can a thon of sorts where people donate cans of IPAs. So there's an anonymous recipient. Oh, giving all that we're giving all the IPAs too. But if you want, uh, to just bring your full, we're not no empties. Of course, a full recent vintage. Lori, what's so funny? Why are you laughing? You think I'm joking. You think I'm joking. Yeah. That's a fucking great idea. Okay.

[00:06:56] Lori's Lori's got a, you and Tom did a challenge or like, or something. What is it called? Like, uh, we do views and bruise. Views and bruise. So yeah. Yeah. You hike a mile somewhere. And, uh, then you visit a, uh, micro brew pub in that served food because you know, you're going to be hungry and thirsty after that mile walk. Mm-hmm . And, uh, you know, we've got that challenge out there for several states across the United States, including New York. Wow.

[00:07:25] Wow. So how well per, per, uh, followed or how many participants do you have doing that? And do you have any way of tracking that or is it just out there for people? Oh, we have the records of all the finishers. We just had, uh, two Massachusetts finishers the other day. Wow. And there's not very many of them. Yeah. You got to promote a little bit more than I I'll, I'll put that in the show notes. Yeah. So where do we, where do we find out more about this? Views and bruise.com. Okay. Well, that makes sense.

[00:07:56] All right. Check it out. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So now once again, Tad, if you're going to be able to make it, uh, bring your IPAs and stuff like that for Tad to test, he's going to test every single one of them. Uh, and you know, if you have some hard ciders, I will test every single one of them as well. Luckily we both have wives to call that can pick us up. Mm-hmm . And if not, you know, I'll just hike up and down the mountain several times until it wears off. So. Yeah. Well, I might have to get a ride over if I show up. So.

[00:08:26] I'll have to test you. Take you. Yeah. I'll have to drink. I can drink anything I want without even hiking a mile. Nice. All right. So show up if you want. I mean, uh, come say hi, we could have, you know, we could have an interview with you on your recent hikes and stuff like that. You know, if you join. So it'd be cool to see anybody get some free stickers, free pens. And Stosh, if, if I don't show Stosh will be giving away a $20 bills to the first 200,

[00:08:52] 200 people that come up to the table. So remember that if I'm not around, if you don't see me first 200 people, 20 bucks each. All you gotta do is hand them a hard cider and exchange. All right. All right. If I'm there, you gotta bring the IPA. Okay. True. It works out. It works out. So, uh, another thing that's going on is September 5th from eight 30 to 9. PM. There is the lighting of the fire towers event.

[00:09:20] So Lori's going to be here talking about it tonight, but I just wanted to give a shout out in the beginning to let everybody know about that. Cause it's actually really cool. It's really cool to see, you know, tonight hike is something else. It's just, it's a whole different feeling and such, but to see the fire towers lit up some, once a couple of times that I've done it, I've done it three times now. Giant ledge was by mistake. Uh, I went on giant ledge by mistake. I went up, uh, mountain, see out the once. And then I did Bramley last year.

[00:09:49] So the giant ledge by mistake was pretty fun because we had a search and rescue that day. And we were called out to Wittenberg and they ended up flying helicopter. And we went out to giant ledge and I'm sitting there staring. I'm like, why the hell are these just dots sitting over there? Not moving. And it was the fire tower event. And I saw, we saw tremper hunter and overlook from giant ledge. So you can see all that. So it was pretty cool. So, uh, Lori's going to chat about this tonight.

[00:10:15] You can see a lot of it, like from, from anywhere, just nail a pull over on the side of a road and see maybe overlook and hunter somewhere. Maybe, uh, it's going to be tough, but once the, uh, several areas, you know, Lori, you, you might have some good info on this somewhere to like, if you don't want to hike, you can go to. Yes. And, and I'll tell you, uh, one of the best, uh, nights we had was, uh, when people hiked up to

[00:10:40] Bel Air and we were on a balsam lake lighting up the tower and they were flashing like Morse code. And it's the same time texting us. And I think there was a group of a dozen hikers or so that did that. So everybody wants to know, were you able to decipher what they were signaling in Morse code? Not until I got the text. And that's cool.

[00:11:05] So from Bel Air, you could see balsam lake, Bramley mountain, Siantha and Hunter. Um, uh, actually I believe it's, uh, Mount tremper and overlook. I am not certain about Hunter, but yes, you can see, you can see Mount you and, uh, and Bramley as well. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's a good location. Yeah. And then you can, if you're at the top, you can just go to the backside and you'll be able to see balsam lake mountain. Right. Oh, wow. Hmm.

[00:11:35] All right. That might be, and that's not a bad hike. That's an easy hike up. Yeah. Yeah. There's some picnic tables up there. Yeah. Yeah. Let's just camp up there. Tad, you can drive up, right? Yeah. Your Tesla. I can do that. That might, that might, it might work. It's not fine work, but once again, we'll talk about that more about tonight. Uh, Saturday, September 5th, 8 30 to 9 PM. Uh, I'll be going somewhere. I'm not sure yet. Yeah. I love Bramley. So if anybody wants to join me in Bramley, but now that Lori has put that into my head about

[00:12:03] Bel Air, that might be an actually fantastic idea. It's probably the same exact hike to go up from Bramley to Bel Air is probably the same distance and, and, uh, elevation gain. So I would say a little bit better. So another thing I wanted to bring up in our last, uh, well, somewhat last, I wanted to, I'll bring this up first before I go into my, my spiel.

[00:12:28] Um, I wanted to say that our last guest, Haley Heinrich, uh, does not have a sponsor from, for running. So if anybody knows any sponsors or stuff that wants to sponsor this amazingly talented young woman that is killing trail running in the Northeast, someone get her a fricking sponsor now because she is awesome. She's fun. She fricking rips it up. She got the fastest.

[00:12:54] Uh, she was the fastest female this year in the escarpet run and she's killed a lot of other, uh, races in the Northeast. So get her a sponsor. So, so let's, let's talk about her for a second. Cause I wasn't on that episode. I didn't check out her Insta feed until when that episode of the podcast, I think it was episode two 32 Sasha. If I'm correct. Yes. Okay. One of those ones. Lori, am I correct? It was number two 32. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:24] That's what they're reporting. So I, I logged onto her Instagram page and let me tell you, man, she rips going downhill. Okay. There's like no breaks on her. It's just full out and flowing downhill. It was amazing to watch her go downhill, just crazy fast. Um, it was a great episode of course.

[00:13:49] Um, but if you really want to see what she does and appreciate what she does, go to her Instagram feed and watch her videos or real stories, whatever they are of her sprinting downhill. It was amazing. Did you watch any of those? I I've seen like two or three and it's yeah, you got to watch more. Yeah. It's basically like a, what the fuck kind of moment. Yeah, no, she's barely. I mean, she's just like almost like tiptoeing on the rock.

[00:14:18] She's so agile and so fluid. It's very impressive. I was like amazed. Yeah. She did this. She's got amazing stats. Like a lot. She's, she's had five, one, two, three, four, five, six plate, first place finishes in New Hampshire races and, and, uh, uh, New York and stuff. It's just, it's insane. So if somebody get her a fricking sponsor. Yeah, definitely.

[00:14:44] So Hudson North that's good for you to sponsor Stosh can be the manager, like manage, which Hudson North brews they bring to the event to make sure they have the right beverage for the territory, but yeah, get her Hudson North sponsorship. That would work out well. And like a beer named after her, a cider named after her that you got to down in a matter of certain amount of time that it's, it's an honor for her because Jesus.

[00:15:12] So, so onto the last somewhat topic, you know, Lori and I have been discussing this for, for a while now. And Tad, I'd like to bring you in on this because you've been hiking for the Catskills in a while, you know, it's, it's something that's, that's become a reality. Uh, and it's not the herd paths. It's not the informal trails. It is something that it's just been on the back burner for a while. And that is our viewpoints in the Catskills.

[00:15:38] So I have noticed, uh, as I hike a lot, as I'm a big viewpoint guy is that our viewpoints are definitely diminishing that they are going, going gone. Some of them are completely lost. Some of them are gone and some of them are very close to being on their way. Like Ted said earlier, uh, that we've had, you know, a lot of rain, a lot of growth, but, um, in the Catskill, like state park master plans and the unit management plans.

[00:16:04] Um, they are allowed to maintain the viewpoints to a certain extent. So if once again, it's been 10 years, uh, since 11 years, since I've started hiking the Catskills, my first visit was balsam and that viewpoint was huge, blew me away. Nothing was obstruction. I'm not sure if you go right now, if you go tomorrow and go up the balsam, there is a very,

[00:16:30] very little viewpoint, probably not even the size of a window right now, where it used to be where you could stand there and have a ledge to yourself of looking. Um, if you go up from Barnum road to Thomas Cole, I've been maintaining that for 11 years now. Um, and I don't maintain the viewpoints. I can't do that. So don't blame me. All right. Almost all viewpoints up on the way besides like the camel's hump viewpoint, somewhat are gone. They're obstructed. There's a few on Claudal's Hill.

[00:17:00] There's two views right below that little scramble or right above that little scramble. Then you get up to a camel's hump. There's two viewpoints on there and that's, that's going away. The camel's hump one is starting to diminish. The other one that looks over Thomas Cole, uh, is starting to diminish because there's a big tree and then there's one on your way up to Thomas Cole that you used to be able to see devil's path and camel's hump and stuff. And it's gone. It's completely gone. Today.

[00:17:24] I went up Indian head mountain because I knew there was viewpoints that were going gone as well. Um, and the summit view and the second viewpoint, uh, going east are almost completely gone. And like I said, um, in the Catskill management plan, the master plan and several unit management plans, which to be honest, I've read, haven't been updated since some of the eighties, early nineties put in a budget to actually maintain these viewpoints.

[00:17:54] So the, the big question is like, what can we do? What should we do? Should we, I mean, like the viewpoints we're losing comparing to the viewpoints that are being maintained or created, which is very few is rapidly. Uh, like being outgrown and stuff like that. So our viewpoints, we're losing our viewpoints. And, uh, I don't, I I'm trying to think, you know, should I start one of those change

[00:18:20] org things and do a petition to get like some attention, some signatures and stuff, you know, me and Kelsey, we're talking about this as well. She would like to help. And it's just, you know, Lori, you've, we've talked about this. Like, is, is there anything we can do? Like you've been hiking in the Catskills for over like 40, 50 years now. Right. Yeah. And what, what can you say? I have, I have, uh, a few different thoughts on it.

[00:18:46] And one is that I understand the lack of resources that may be out there, but we have got fantastic volunteers out there with hearts of gold. And they would step forward. Um, like yourself, when you're maintaining a section of trail, you just do a little clipping. It doesn't have to be anything drastic. You don't need to bring a chainsaw in and clear cut. It can be part of routine maintenance.

[00:19:15] And that maintain that volunteer maintainer can be, um, given the proper tools to do it. And the proper instruction on how to do it. And the other thing that I think that we have seen some experience with, and that is that, um, you will see vigilante clearing of these, um, viewpoints. Uh, people will see that it is marked on a map.

[00:19:44] And they'll go clear it. And I think we would be much better off if we were to really make this a priority with the DEC and the volunteers that are out there. And, and, and make sure that, you know, like I said, you don't have to go out there and clear cut it. You can go out there and you can start a little snip and nip this year. Next year you do a little bit more snip and nip kind of thing.

[00:20:08] The reason why it is in that master plan is because the hiking public would like to see them maintained. And at some point the state of New York agreed to that. That's why it's in there. So why aren't we doing it? Yeah. I thought the same thing as well, you know, proper training. Yeah. And you know, like I, once again, I have four viewpoints that I'd love to clip back and have everybody enjoy that are on the map that have been on the map.

[00:20:35] You know, I, the funny thing is I looked for the unit management plan for, for over there and it just has wind them. It doesn't even have the blackhead range for, for the unit management plan. So they, they have a lot of updating to do actually. Like the, the big Indian one was from like 1989, I think. Yeah. I mean, I, I agree with you totally. Lori, what about Ted? What about you? What are your thoughts here? Are you a viewpoint kind of guy? Do you like that?

[00:21:00] Well, you know, people who know me know that, you know, I necessarily won't go out of my way to check out a marked viewpoint. True. Um, but yeah, viewpoints, you know, definitely, uh, strike a chord with me as well as many other hikers. A lot of people kind of just do it for the viewpoints.

[00:21:19] But I previously have said that if the DEC wants to divert traffic from the higher mountains that don't have trails, you know, like Lone, Rocky, et cetera. Create some viewpoints on those mountains between 3000 and 3500 feet, put them on a map, you know, viewpoints on trails. And you're going to get people that start going there and get some of the traffic out of the heavily trafficked area.

[00:21:47] And just look at how much use giant ledge gets for the viewpoints it has. So the, the DEC can kind of spread the hiking traffic around just by creating some viewpoints. And arguably at one point in time, you had nothing but viewpoints in the Catskills and it was in its most wild state back then. Uh, so I don't really view it as being all that damaging to go out and do a viewpoints.

[00:22:15] It's probably more of when and how you do it, that would be more damaging. So I surely support it. And we could go through the DEC budget for the Catskills and probably cut some fat here and there and have more than enough money to restore all of the existing marked viewpoints and probably create 20 more, uh, on trails or just off trail by a little stub access. Yeah. And give, give people the viewpoints they want.

[00:22:42] And maybe we could go so far as to have giant ledge one, giant ledge two, giant ledge three, giant ledge four. So we can really give meaning to giant ledges. You know what I'm saying? Oh, I know what you're saying. You know, I've, I've actually heard that some of the viewpoints towards the end of giant ledger being obstructed now. Mm hmm. Yeah. Panther mountain. Uh, the summit is totally gone. The summit view.

[00:23:07] So now you've got to walk towards Fox hollow to get to that viewpoint, which is starting to be somewhat obstructed. Like it's, we are, they, they did that new, the new, new, the old viewpoint. They updated up on, on slide. That's the one I can remember. Um, somebody on Cheryl did that themselves. The DEC did not do that one. Mm hmm.

[00:23:28] Um, I know of an existing viewpoint over on balsam cap or yeah, balsam cap that somebody took into their own hands that, uh, I think it's actually phenomenal. And it's one of the best. Um, but it takes, it takes a lot of effort to get there, but like, it just stinks because like you could take all of us volunteers out on an expedition with something with the tools and train us.

[00:23:55] And, you know, I would be fricking so excited to be able to do this that, you know, like it would just be so much fun. But I have, to be honest, since doing this, since 2015, I've gotten one training on this and everything else was basically, I learned it myself. Someone, I got one training that was in like 2018 and well maintenance. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, that was it. I mean, that was down in Kingston and some of these people, they just kind of like.

[00:24:25] I just give them the trail and then they say, have at it. And I'm just like, what really? So. So you, I'm sorry to interrupt, but you, you didn't have any training out on an actual trail in the cow skills. Nope. Yeah. The same for me. I was a trail maintainer for years. I never had any training. Yeah. It's, it's, it's thing. I mean, once again, Laura, you are right. They're pressed for people in time.

[00:24:50] You know, I can remember years ago when we had one of the great foresters, uh, and done. And he was one of the most passionate people I've ever dealt with, with DC that actually loved the forest and stuff. Uh, and taught well, wanted to create new trails. We created that new trail on taste. Uh, over there with him, he was fantastic. Um, it just, you know, I haven't seen a forester out in the trail in a long time.

[00:25:16] Haven't heard of a forester, you know, being mentioned, you know, the collaboration and stuff like that. I mean, the Rangers is, as I've seen the Rangers, but you know, like I've never, once again, I've never been out in the trail with training for a ranger of how to clear a water bar. Or I know, I know how to trim just because I've read, read about it, but like, it's just, it, it kind of sucks, you know? And, and, you know, thank you to shout out to every one of our volunteers out there. You guys are fricking killing it.

[00:25:45] Uh, we just need more collaboration with not just the DEC, but with the Catskill center and with the New York, New Jersey trail. Like I've never collaborated with any one of them ever to get trail maintenance or stuff like that. So hopefully somebody here, something and we can get something going, we can start about this viewpoints, but I'm going to keep researching this. I have things down. If somebody has pictures of like before and after I do need pictures from a bunch of different places of before.

[00:26:15] So the viewpoints. Yeah. Tad, if you've got any, let me know. Yeah. I got, I got a few, I got a few photos. I got a, I got a dig deep. So while we're talking about trail maintenance viewpoints and Stosh and his trail maintenance experience and listening to episode. God, I think it was, I forget the number two 32. That's what comes to mind episode two 32. Um, you had done trail maintenance just before recording that. Didn't you? Correct. Yeah.

[00:26:43] And are you able to tell us that? Cause I don't remember you saying on the episode, but what kind of gear did you bring with you to do trail maintenance? Like tweezers, like a pair of hand clippers. So what'd you have, what'd you have going on there? If you're permitted to say. Permitted. Uh, I had, um, just clippers like small clippers. Um, and then I have, it's not even called a, a, a sigh. Is it a Sarah? What is it?

[00:27:12] Oh, a sickle sick. Sort of like a sickle. It's like, like, like the old timers used to cut weeds and stuff. Yeah. But, uh, Hey. Yeah. Okay. Uh, my section that sucks because it is from camel's hump to kind of like the, the elevation start of Thomas Cole. It's just nothing but vegetation. Yeah. So I, every time I have done that, I've gotten massive amount of blisters, even with gloves on and stuff. Cause I gotta go up one side and then back down the other.

[00:27:41] I mean, it's not long, but it's a lot of thick. Yeah. Yeah. Ferns, grass, uh, vines, uh, stuff like that. And it's just, it's a pain in the ass. Mm. So I might've, or might not taken other gear up to help myself out. Uh, okay. And it's, it helped, it helped out a lot. It made it a lot easier. It was a fucking hell of a haul to going up there. Mm. I gotta admit it was a lot of weight. Sure. Are you done until the fall? No, I am. Yeah. Okay.

[00:28:11] There wasn't any blow down. There wasn't, it was, it was once again, like I know rip van Winkle does from camels hump down. They got, they got some work to do on that little area. But, um, once again, like go, it's just, it's tough. It's, it really is tough work by hand. Like I do have a shitty, shitty area, but I love that area. You gotta admit that one area is just absolutely stunning with just the forest and stuff.

[00:28:39] And every time I'm up there, I'm always looking for a bear to pop out in that one called the part of the call between camels hump and Thomas Cole. Just, I don't know why. Yeah. That's a nice area. That's actually the, uh, trail segment that I bushwhacked up to on the 30th. Nice. Then I was, when I was pushed and fell down on myself, you're still looking for the person who pushed me. It's going to be a long time, buddy. Yeah. There's a bear. Yeah.

[00:29:09] Could be two legged mountain lion. All right. Once again, I'd be willing to, to create like enhance those viewpoints little by little. Yeah. Once again, in the, in the plan, they do have like limitations of what you can do, uh, certain height or certain, what are they called? DB diameter, breast height or something like that. Yeah. Breast height, diameter. Yes. So, um, good. There's a lot of stuff to research and I have been, I've been writing stuff down.

[00:29:38] So if anybody else wants to chime in, let me know. Yeah. So the, the, the fact that the DEC hasn't done, ostensibly hasn't done anything to maintain these viewpoints is really like a de facto decision on their part to do away with them. Right. And then they become a point where the trees have grown to be so large that they can just stand back and say, well, they're too big now to cut down. Yeah. Cause they haven't done anything for 10, 15, maybe 20 years. Yeah, exactly. And then you can see it up on the slide viewpoint.

[00:30:08] If you look over that ledge, you can see how big of trees they had to cut just to make, I mean, slide is one of the most popular destinations. So they're like, Oh, we gotta. Yeah, definitely. So. Yeah. We'll see what happens. So we'll get, I'll get the, I'll get the, to the wheels turning, the ball rolling and we'll get this going. So thank you, Lori, for joining. I have Lori. I know you're going to be probably jumping in on this. I mean, you jumping on everything in the Catskills. You are a big part of the Catskills. And we thank you for that. Sure. Yeah. All right.

[00:30:37] So how about we get on to the amazing people that support the show? Like Chris Garabian, Eric Rosario, Ascana Nichols, John Comiskey, who, excuse me, Mikey S, Desert City Radio, Henry Burmeister, Vicky Ferrer, Jeff Jotz, David Oliver, who probably won't listen to this. Betsy A, Denise W, Vanessa, and Jim C. Thank you guys so much for supporting the show. Love you guys. Thanks.

[00:31:04] Also, our amazing sponsors of the show is like Outdoor Chronicles Photography. Molly, specialized in adventure couple photography and she'll immortalize your moments amidst the stunning landscapes of the Catskills, Adirondacks, and White Mountains. She'll craft timeless images that reflect unique bond in nature's grandeur. Embark on an unforgettable photographic journey with Outdoor Chronicles Photography. Don't hesitate to get a hold of Molly on every single platform.

[00:31:30] Also, if you want to discover the wilderness, you should check out Trailbound Project. Their expert-led hiking and backpacking education programs offer unparalleled outdoor experiences. Whether you're a beginner or seasoned adventurer, join them to learn essential skills, explore stunning trails, and connect with nature. Start your journey today with Trailbound Project and unlock the wonders of the great outdoors. So, who's having something to drink tonight? Is it just me? Lori, you got something?

[00:31:59] I am. No beer tonight though. I found, I got turned on to this very refreshing summer drink of cucumber vodka with some cran raspberry juice and seltzer. Really, really good on a warm day. Damn straight. That is nice. That sounds good. Lori's going to be passed out by the time she gets her interview. All right. I like it. Tad, how about you, sir? I am.

[00:32:29] I am trying to find my audio settings here. It's been a while, buddy. Yeah, I know. I'm so rusty. Hold on. Noise removal. High. Low. Okay. All right. Now, now the one handed podcaster can go and get his- Take your time, buddy. His drink out. Oh, this is almost like therapy. Okay. Here we go. Beautiful. Beautiful. Woo!

[00:32:58] That was some effort. It's the first time I- Yeah. All right. Okay. Me as well. Thank you, Tad. I hope that didn't kill you too much, didn't hurt you too much. You're- Yeah, I might have to like go call 911. Yeah. Lori, uh, Tad just had a surgery for his rotator cuff. So, yeah, he's- Yeah. Good luck. Good luck with that recovery. Yeah. He's coming.

[00:33:24] I'm heading into the really, really, really fun part now where you get a therapist and twice a week they're allowed to torture you. I thought, yeah. So that's for the next six weeks, eight weeks. Yep. That's, that's what I'm going to be doing. You'll, you'll, Tad, you're going to pull through this and next time your, your, your next hike report will be like, oh yeah. You know, I, I hiked, I bushwhacked up Wittenberg and Cornell and then I did the Burroughs range three times.

[00:33:53] And then- No, my next, my next hike in the Catskills, I'm driving your Tesla to the top of some mountain. Saying, booyah! That's what I'm going to do. Maybe after that I'll do some hiking, but- I'll allow it. Yeah. You put it out there. So yeah, we'll put some little terrain tires on it so we don't get stuck. So what'd you have Tad, by the way? I'm sorry. Oh yeah. So this is one of these things where I, all day long, I was meaning to get out and get

[00:34:19] a four pack of something in part to have something like interesting. And you, you know, that I haven't had before tonight on the show. But when I went to the ref, I didn't get out today. And when I did go to the fridge, I opened it up and alls I had was an industrial arts torque hazy double IPA. Nice. Lori, you like IPAs? Oh, I love IPAs. They're my favorite.

[00:34:48] Are you familiar with the industrial arts? Absolutely good stuff there. Yeah. So, so the, the, I guess the, the moral of the story is, is if you only have one IPA in your refrigerator, when you need an IPA, this is one hell of a good IPA to have there. Okay. Yeah. Cause it's like just really juicy tropical. They say it's, um, uh, sticky. Yeah. I'd say it's sticky.

[00:35:17] The flavor sticks. And then for those who really, really want to know how good it is. Yes. Of course it is 8.2%. Nice. It's a double. What's that? Did you say it's a double? Yeah. It's the, uh, torque hazy double. So it's not only a double, it's a hazy double. I'm down for that. Nice. Yeah. That's a couple ibuprofens and I'm, I'm ready to rock and roll. Nice.

[00:35:46] Paul, what do you think I'm having to start? What do you think I'm having? Uh, you're having milk and cookies. Very close. It tastes just like it. You're doing shots of Bacardia. Coke on the side. No. Am I getting warmer? All right. My last guess is a hard cider. Correct. Wow. You're good. It's 20 bucks to you. Uh, good old Hudson North peach mango. I'm finishing up the peach mango.

[00:36:14] I got some new ones today from tops. You know, that horrible, disgusting store in Tannersville. God, it was disgusting. There was cockroaches and dead fish all over the place. The meat was red. Did you hear about that? Lori? Yes. I heard they were selling iceberg lettuce from Taylor farms. I know. Right. Ridiculous. This is good. Dare they? Yeah. I was, I was going to do a, a, a kind of like a, a recording of me going in there and

[00:36:42] just saying, wow, this looks like a normal grocery store. What are these red, what are these red things? Tomatoes or tomatoes? Yeah. I usually get these delivered to me. I can't, I don't have to come here and get them. Yeah. But got a good old Hudson North for next week and stuff, or actually for climate for climate. So good. Lori's having some good old mixed drink. Tad's having an IPA and I'm having a hard cider. We're all over the place with this. That's good. Well, we have the bases covered. Rock on. All right.

[00:37:11] So let's move on to, are you really outdoors? So mention the podcast, one of your hikes through social media. We'll chat tag, talk about it about on the show. Tag us by typing at ITL Catskill MTM podcast on your post. Also let me know if you're doing it on Facebook and I don't get you because sometimes it doesn't notify me and stuff. So Chrissy G was in Spain biking on the cold to tour a mallet, then did a hike in Bargeras. If I said that correctly.

[00:37:40] Um, and then she did a bunch of other stuff too. Uh, sorry, Chrissy. I'm trying to keep up with all your tags. She said she did like a biking expedition and woke up the next day with a laceration in her eye. Oh, wow. That's awful. I had to, I'm going to reach out and ask her if she's okay. Cause like that was crazy. Yeah. Like woke up with that, but she is up in Spain and the great Pyrenees and stuff like that. Doing some awesome stuff. Yeah. The cold do tourmalet is. Ooh, there you go. Yeah.

[00:38:10] It's a, uh, one of the just classics of the tour de France. Oh no shit. Yeah. It's, it's a mountain like that on the tour de France. It's a legit mountain. So she's obviously doing like a, a cyclists bucket list and also looks like a hikers bucket list for it's like a two for one. They're having a great trip over there. True. They're not. Yeah. I hope they're not getting in E of that, um, smoke from the forest fires they've had over there. I don't know if it affected that region or not.

[00:38:40] Oh wow. Yeah. I do know that they shook up the tour de France the last couple of days because of the forest fire smoke. Wow. I didn't know there was, there was that crazy over there too. So. Oh yeah. It's, it's, uh, it's like the worst they've had in the whole world. The thong of fire. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, it's, it's climate change where we, we don't have like, you know, normal rain events.

[00:39:04] It seems during the summer, we go through these brief periods when I say brief week and a half to three weeks of really no rain. And then you get these afternoon torrential downpours, almost like you're in Southern Florida that they'll blow through your area, but five miles away, nobody's getting rain. Mm. And you know, it's for people with grassy lawns, like Sean, Iannucci and myself, you know, we, we get upset when our lawns turn brown.

[00:39:32] But when you're a farmer and you're growing stuff and you don't get rain for two to three weeks. And then you get a big downpour. It really isn't good for you. Yeah. Yeah. I feel for the farmers, especially the ones that are growing the apples that go into the cider. Correct. Correct. Eventually all cider drinkers. Lori will be drinking beer. I'm just saying. It's gonna be tough. I might have to try one this weekend. It's the brew for climate. Cause it's going to be beer.

[00:40:01] Ooh, that's, it sounds like a new one, Ted. I will write that down. Brew for climate. Nice. Nice. Moving on. Brad Labrardante went up hunter from Becker hollow did rust East rocks, ox hollow, and then back up hunter and down Becker trail. So nice. Good old. Like lollipop. Would you call that? Yeah. Lollipop. So that was good. Uh, Scott cats go out on Brutes and some, uh, mud bogging up on cat or skill high peak with John, AKA foolish, not stupid.

[00:40:28] And sorry, John for missing your post last week, but your profile was private and you unlocked it recently. So now once again, seeing John foolish, not stupid, the cat or skill high peak with Scott and Zorro, uh, almost halfway for a single season grid and previously did the hunter mountain loop and also the nine. So once again, sorry, I missed your tags, John. So foolish, not stupid. Cool. I like that name. Um, Danielle, which in the wilderness was at the job, Rob, John Rob lead to doing hunter mountain.

[00:40:58] That is actually a viewpoint that hasn't obstructed yet, but it's about its way to. So is it? Yeah. Yeah. Those, once again, it's the small trees that are just sprouting up super quick because of the crazy rain. They're just like going crazy. And that's a, that's an incredible sunset viewpoint. That's one of my favorites. So yeah, it's, um, just off the trail. Many people just like buy it, not knowing it's there. It's a great view spot. Uh, Danielle was also, it looked like she spent a few days up there. I don't know how many days, but she was at the spruce tin end.

[00:41:28] Oh yeah. Yeah. Taking in the surround. So yeah, she had, it looks like a pretty cool vacation, if you will, in the Catskills. So kudos to her and her, uh, companion. Yeah. Danielle reach out to me. I want to hear how the spruce tin is and stuff. It's pretty cool. It's cool. They have, um, I think they call it a bar in bed bed and bar. Yeah. That was pretty funny. Yeah. That's one of the few places that's a bar and spruce tin besides.

[00:41:57] Hey, I'll say this. If you, if you wanted to be kind of in a remote area, but not so remote that you didn't have neighbors, uh, spruce tin road is a pretty cool road. You know, there's, it looks like there's a decent community along that road with the benches along the way, the community center. There's a post office down there. You got the West kill brewery. Uh, van doosens is just around the corner.

[00:42:21] So it's not like living in Woodstock or maybe Phoenicia, but spruce tin road, West kill looks pretty, pretty cool out there. And it's goddamn scenic road. It's a beautiful road. I'll also add that at the spruce and in, um, uh, if you stop and ask, uh, Casey, um, they will let you, um, do a bushwhack from West kill down to their property. Oh, nice. Yeah. That's a nice little thing. Yeah.

[00:42:50] Uh, so that would be like just directly down the middle of West kill. Oh, cool. Yeah. There's, there's actually a sliver of, uh, public access just over the bridge, go right over the bridge, over the West kill prop proper and off to the, yeah, off to the left is just a little sliver that lets you get up to, uh, West kill. I mean, that would be still nice with doing it from the spruce. Then come back and have a shot when you're done. Yeah. We have a cold one. Yeah.

[00:43:19] There's, um, we did. Yeah. The couple that had, had the, the really cool barn. Remember the cool barn right next to this Bruce tin end. Oh yeah. The signs on it. Yes. We fallen down. Yeah. They, one year they picked me up hitchhiking, um, out to where I was starting and they invited me over to their place afterwards for, uh, burgers and beers. So I, I took them up on the beer, but not the burgers. I'm not a beef guy. Oh, nice. Wow. Yeah.

[00:43:46] I'll say every time I went to hitchhike on Sprucedon road, I've gotten a ride. Um, nice. So yeah. It's a cool, cool community. Once again, um, Todd Tebowd outdoors was up at North point and pitching point loop down in the Hudson Valley area. Um, Jen Bowen five, three Oh nine did balsam and Eagle with John foolish, not stupid. Good to see you guys again. I hiked with them previously, so I probably should have had them on the, uh, on the Instagram that I should know of them. But, uh, once again, it was private.

[00:44:15] So, uh, good to see them. I hiked with them doing Scott's, his finish on Panther is 420 grid in a single season, his quadruple finish or whatever the hell it was. It was insane. Like Scott's awesome. He's incredible. And speaking of Scott, he was back in the Adirondacks. He'd knocked off Colvin and Blake said it was an easy day for him. So he's probably going to do like 25 peaks in a matter of four hours. Uh, again, so yeah, it looks like he's having a great summer getting out there, hiking up the storm. Hell yeah. Hiking all over the place.

[00:44:45] Good for him. Yeah. He's all over the place. Uh, last but not least, Andy Brown skied to the paddle on two tiny lakes and Harriman Lake us Taki and Lake scan and Addy. Did I say it right? Close enough for me. I wouldn't, I wouldn't know the difference scan. Uh, Nat to scan a Tati air. So I'll get, I'll get the called out by David Perez. Uh, but he also did black rock forest preserve to kick off some more of his downstate 28, which I hear a lot of people are enjoying.

[00:45:14] So yeah, that's great. And I've actually hiked at black rock forest preserve hiked and mountain bike there. Nice. Yeah. That's good planning. I'm planning on going back. What's that? There's fire tower there. Is there, I don't remember seeing that at the black rock forest, but I'm going to part of my recovery hike program. I'm going to get over there. Cause as I remember from years ago, the, the roads through there are very manageable. So yeah.

[00:45:45] Nice. Yeah. Cool. Um, thanks everybody for tagging us. Really appreciate it. I hope you're getting out there and having a good time and leaving no trace. So, uh, also if you think we're doing a good job and you want to show us some support blast a hard coffee or hard cider, buy us a hard coffee, buy us a coffee, hard cider on buy me a coffee.com. Uh, rate the show five stars only would be the best. Um, so who wants to do previous hikes? Ted, what have you been up to?

[00:46:14] Uh, yeah. So I, my recovery. Yep. I'm my, my new standard is going over to Mohonk preserve Saturday, Sunday, doing the over cliff under cliff road. I'll call it. It's a carriage road and other connecting carriage roads. Most mornings I, I head over to the town park and do laps around the town park, which is the height of excitement for me. But on weekends, when I have more time, I do get over to Mohonk preserve.

[00:46:43] It's amazing how few people are over there super early. They, they generally are rolling in when I'm, uh, coming out, you know, around a quarter to 10, 10 o'clock. Uh, the places during, you know, their peak time, uh, full, you know, there's the parking lots. Sure. Full. There's a lot of people there. Um, but I, I have been visiting this issue of what is, what is a hike? And so I got a message. Well, what's a hike versus a walk.

[00:47:11] And so Lori, I got a message from Erica Miranda who offered the following. And I'm going to ask you, Lori, if this is what makes a walk into a hike. Okay. And according to Erica, but I hope she's listening. Cause she obviously knows what she suggested is the Rubicon that separates the two, but a walk becomes a hike.

[00:47:38] When you're hiking someplace that you can pee outdoors. Hmm. That's it. Yeah. Hmm. So I wondered if what's that, Lori, what do you think? I don't know. Um, you know, I mean, when you're desperate, it'll, it'll work anywhere. Um, could be. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't, I don't know. Mm hmm. Yeah. I'll have to think on that Erica. Yeah. But don't, but don't push it.

[00:48:04] I mean, don't like be walking through the tops parking lot in Tannersville and turn it into a hike. If you know what I'm saying. Yeah. Okay. True. And then Stash Stash, this brings me to, I don't know if this is like a bitch or just an observation, but I haven't been in the Catskills since May 30th. And we're not going to talk about why I haven't been in the Catskills since May 30th, because it's kind of a sore subject.

[00:48:31] But the one thing I haven't seen, I haven't noticed people posting this really, I haven't heard you talking about it. And I really haven't seen other people talking about this. Nettles. Hmm. Right. Am I wrong? Yeah. I'm like, I'm out for the season. And is it like, there's no nettles this year? Why is nobody talking about the nettles?

[00:48:58] Are they out with the same ferociousness that they are other years in August where they're biting? I think they're just a man to it. Yeah. The others are. I just, I just, I thought of that today that geez, nobody's like posting pictures of nettles. Nobody's talking about nettles. Is it like not a thing anymore? Did the DEC spray for nettles? Nice. Did the emerald, did the emerald ash borer decide to eat all the nettles?

[00:49:25] I mean, I'm, I'm just, you know, the woolly adelgid, are they attacking the nettles? I'm not sure. I'm just wondering, yeah, what's going on out there with the nettles. So that's all I've got to say about hiking, walking and peeing in the tops parking lot. That's nice. Lori, how about you? What have you been up to? Uh, yesterday was Bramley with a grandson and daughter-in-law. Uh, that's the first time they've been up there since the tower, uh, was put up.

[00:49:55] Uh, they, they thought it was great. And both of them, despite it being 80 feet tall, went right to the top. Uh, you know, it's in our, it's in our family's blood to do so. And, uh, Saturday we braved the crowds and we did Panther. Ooh. Cool. Yeah. And your, your thoughts, please.

[00:50:17] So, so I always like, I think it's really important to remember that we were all first timers out there once upon a time. And giant ledge is like the perfect place to see the first timers and, and to try to see it with their eyes. And, and I got to tell you, you know, there's been, uh, uh, a lot of those heavy downpours, the, um, wash out along the edge of the parking lot, which is, you know, way, way too small.

[00:50:46] Um, that was really bad. The privy was so bad. There was no way I would ever consider using that. The trails 20 feet wide, maybe 30 feet wide in places.

[00:51:01] Uh, and there, there is a new roof on the kiosk, but it's a, it looks like a beautiful, uh, roof, but the whole thing is tipping over because it's so top heavy that I'm sure it'll be on the forest floor very soon. Yeah. Mm-hmm .

[00:51:21] And the trail register box is also tipping and it is so, it hasn't been maintained in so long that the stenciling on the front that says, please sign in is completely gone. And when you open the box, it's just all graffiti inside. And so, welcome to the Catskills. Um, please take as good a care of this place as we do. Message is not the one we should be sending. Yeah.

[00:51:51] Oh, that's. And I was also quite surprised. I know we started on this and, uh, but I was also quite surprised at how much some of the viewpoints on Giant Ledge really are growing in. I was, I was really noticeable on Panther the last couple of times I've been there, but, uh, maybe it's just this year with all the, the rain and, and the growth. Mm-hmm . But, uh, even, even on Giant Ledge, they're growing in quite a bit. Yeah.

[00:52:16] So, so Lori, the info that our listeners want to know, uh, what time did you show up to the parking lot and how full was it? Good question. Uh, we were there a little before eight. Okay. Oh, wow. And of course we parked down the road. So the parking lot was already full before eight? Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, you, you also, uh, Tad, I don't know, you don't have Facebook, but Tom posted those pictures of the idiots parking, instead of parking in, they parked sideways. Yeah.

[00:52:46] Yeah. Yeah. So that took up what? Almost two and a half parking spots. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, I mean, once again, like you said, Lori, some of this is their first times and it's, it's kind of, it does suck. You know, you're looking at the kiosk that's leaning and, you know, Tad and I were, could have got 20 volunteers to throw that thing up and do a great job, but it took them months to do that.

[00:53:12] And now it's, I mean, it was even, even like boy scouts did it or something like that.

[00:53:45] So, yeah. Indian head for some reason, but the popular areas they, I mean, Indian head is, is for us lovers that, you know, can actually handle the mud and know how to navigate through the mud. But God giant ledge when they have their Nikes on or something like that, they don't want to hit the mud. They'll avoid it any way possible. Yeah. There were a lot of whites, there were a lot of white, um, and I call them shoes, not boots. And they were still white.

[00:54:13] Um, as, as they were coming back down, I was impressed, which means they were nowhere near the trail. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that sucks. I mean, but once again, like the giant ledges is a great introduction, but we need to have a better introduction. Like you said. So, so if I'm a first timer and I'm, you know, I read about this, this place, giant ledges, or is it giants? Giant ledges. Giant ledges. Ledges of the giants, something like that. What everybody else says.

[00:54:42] Next to this place where you can go see a meteor in the Catskills. So if I'm, I'm a first timer, I'm driving my Tesla up there, cause that's what most of them drive. I'm driving my Tesla, I get to the hairpin. I park wherever I want, cause there's no striping there. And I get there really early and I start walking out. It's like, I don't know. I don't know that I'm not supposed to walk around these mud holes, these puddles. True. There's no signage.

[00:55:11] There's very, there's a pair of very low level of integration of leave no trace and trail etiquette at the trailhead for newbies and first timers. Um, and what I do remember in those areas and slide, the thing that really grates on me is the people that bring those little doggy do bags with them.

[00:55:35] And they go through the trouble of picking up their doggy do and tying it off and carrying it with them and carrying it with them and carrying it with them. And then when they get back to their trail head, what do they do? They drop it there. Mm-hmm . Right? Because even though the DEC doesn't have the time to maintain the kiosk, to maintain the sign in register, to maintain the trail head, they do have a crew that goes around every night and picks up those doggy do bags. Yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:56:05] Yeah. The dog do fairy. Yeah. The dog do fairy. See, that's why Lori's on. I never knew there was a dog do fairy. I want to get, I'm going to get a dog do fairy t shirt. I'm going to put a dog do fairy doggy do bag under my pillow tonight. Will the fairy come and take it? Lori? Sure. Sure. Okay. All right. I got to tell my wife that Lori told me to do this. Nice. Nice. Yeah. It stinks. So like, once again, it stinks, it stinks.

[00:56:35] Yeah. In one word, it stinks. We have a lot of great volunteers, you know, once again, that kick in or people like, you know, organizations like us or the Catskill 3500 club and, you know, the forest fire lookout association to, to dedicate these times to improve this, but it's just New York state doesn't want to do that. They don't want to let us help out. They just want everything to be budgeted and to be paid for and stuff. And it sucks.

[00:57:04] So maybe it's time to fucking rebel. And we do this shit ourselves. What are they going to do? Burn it down. Yeah. I'm fully capable now. One armed, one arm to take on the DEC. When they fricking, when these people created their own viewpoints, did they grow new trees? No. Let's go build our own kiosk and stuff. I actually, you know, if you don't mind moving on. What about your hike? You have a hike stosh. Yeah. So today I did the Indian head loop, starting with the kiosk.

[00:57:34] The book hasn't been, there's like two pages in the book now. And they were from back in June. Like people are writing on the inside of the book and stuff. Nothing to do with that. I mean, that's disappointing. The trail is fantastic. They have awesome new rocks in the middle of mud spots in the spots where there wasn't even mud. The trail is absolutely fantastic. The trail. I forgot how easy going up Indian head from the peak or Jimmy Dolan notch is.

[00:58:03] I thought it was, I remember I was like, man, it was a little bit harder last time, but I guess that was because it was the ice, but it wasn't bad. But the reason why I did this is because I wanted to go look at their viewpoints because I'm researching all these viewpoints and seeing what has gone and what hasn't gone up. I've been talking to Lori. I've been talking to Jim Bouton about this and Indian head has four viewpoints on there and two of them are almost completely gone. The other two are okay. I would say, okay.

[00:58:34] But I thought it was a fantastic day to hike. It was a little bit muggy. Luckily I had wind on my side. I had some wind on my side. I met only two people throughout the whole fricking hike, two guys on their way up from the east doing the devil's. The devil's path, two dudes, Isaac and Raymond. They were super cool young kids. When he said, I'm a lifetime resident of Socrates. I looked at him. I go 19 years. He's just like, and he starts laughing. He goes, Oh yeah.

[00:59:04] He's like, that did sound a little weird. I'm just like, yeah, you're pretty young, man. Like usually the 50 year olds say that and stuff like, but they were doing devil's path. He, he, uh, Isaac said his backpack, his pack was a little bit too, too heavy, but he's embracing the suck. And he loves doing it. His first time doing devil's path, even though he's a lifetime Socrates resident, it was good to introduce him to, they were very excited to know that there is a dedicated podcast to the cat school.

[00:59:32] So it was the, the trails in fantastic shape. Uh, once again, we're losing the viewpoints. Uh, I, on the way back down through the east, there was definitely a lot of mud. You go through those little areas, but it looks like the mud is a goddamn sand pit. But if you walk through it, it's not even like a quarter of an inch of mud. You can walk right on it. I took a video of it. I'm just like, just stop being pussies. You're hiking. You're not a year halfway through the hike.

[01:00:01] It's going to fall off. Stop, stop doing that. So other than that beautiful day, nice trek, good old, like six something miles, uh, six and a half miles or something. 1600 feet again. I forgot on the backside when you do the loop and you're going counterclockwise that you have to go up that little part when you start on devil's path from the black clove area that you got to go up more. So I was bitching and complaining about that.

[01:00:26] Uh, so I just sweat off a little bit more, but I also wanted to point out that a while a month ago, I haven't talked about this, but I got a new watch. My nephew got me a Garmin Phoenix eight. So I was looking for, I was in the market for a new watch and I was going to buy a cheap one because Jessica's watch broke. She wanted my watch. So I was like, I'll get a decent tracking watch. But my nephew's like, I have like three or four that I'm not using. And this one happens to be a Garmin Phoenix tracks perfectly.

[01:00:56] Like every stats are on point and everything like that. You can watch your, your GPS location. I didn't send you a picture. I was going to send you a picture, but at one point I looked down at my watch and it was showing me the map and I was 0.1 miles from the camera. From the devil's path. And that's what it said 0.1, 1 miles from devil's path. And I was like, oh shit, that's cool. So. Um, good thing is, is that there is a viewpoint still in, in a Jimmy Dolan notch. So that's good. So that one won't ever go away. So it's not even marked on the map. So that's cool. Yeah.

[01:01:26] A lot of history up there in that area. Yeah, it was, it was a good hike. It was just beautiful. Stunning. What are you leaving out Stosh? Did counterclockwise that long schlep back from, uh, you know, the Plat Cove area back to Rediger road. What about the nettles through there? Uh, the only spot that I, I found like a little bit nettles. This is like over on the east side.

[01:01:52] When you like towards the end of the scent to the, the junction of Plat Cove road and devil's path. Yeah. That was about it. It's very, very light throughout the whole fricking hike. It's nice. I mean, maybe, maybe up a little bit towards the top of Indian head, uh, from the, the predator road a little bit, but nothing to, to go crazy about. So interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:19] I don't remember there having been many over there, but, uh, just interesting to reconnect with the nettles, if you will. That's what we don't want to do. So, so yeah, so great hike. Once again, uh, Isaac and Raymond, good to meet you, man. Hope you like the show. I told them that they're going to be on tonight's show, so I promised them. So they'll tune in.

[01:02:42] So once again, Catskill news volunteer, New York, New Jersey trail conference, 3,500 club Catskill trail crew, Catskill mountains club, visitor center, Jolly rovers trail crew, Bramley mountain fire tower, forest fire lookout association that we'll talk about tonight. And Lori, are you looking for volunteers anywhere else? Oh yeah. Anywhere. We're always looking for volunteers. Okay. Okay. Reach out to Lori on any social media. We'll check it out.

[01:03:09] So how about we break it into the weather forecast? Here is your weekend weather forecast. On Friday, August 14th, expect clear skies in the morning, move through possible rain showers in the afternoon and clear at night. A high during the day of 63, a low at night of 54 and wind chills dipping down to 52 degrees.

[01:03:36] On Saturday looks to be the best day out to be hiking. It is going to be clear all day and wind chills will be dipping down to only 52 degrees. A high will be 59. The low will be 55 and it will be a beautiful day to get out. Now on Sunday, on Sunday, August 16th, we're expecting rain in the morning, afternoon and night.

[01:04:03] Uh, totals could be up to an inch and a half temperatures reaching up to 61 degrees at night, but staying steadily at 57 throughout the day. Wind chills will not be a factor, uh, maybe reaching down to 52 degrees.

[01:04:17] So, uh, be out there with your, uh, water apparel, your, your windbreakers, whatever you can to keep away from this water on that Sunday, or just don't go out on Sunday and just come on over to the Bel Air Ski Center and say hi to me at the table, wherever I'm at. And, uh, get an interview or bring me a beer or whatever. Let's cup off some beers. But anyway, have a good weekend. Be safe, be prepared, and don't become tomorrow's rescue story.

[01:04:47] Let's go guys. All right. Well, thank you for that inaccurate weather forecast that we have in the Catskills as always. Uh, once again, I usually say it's going to be like 60 something degrees. It is wrong. So sorry about that. It's probably going to be like 85 degrees and sunny. So do not take that, uh, literally. So how about our last set of sponsors and we'll get on to Lori.

[01:05:11] So discover camp Catskill and Tanner'sville, your ultimate hiking store, find top quality gear, apparel, and accessories for all your outdoor adventures. Our expert staff is here to help every hiker from beginners to seasoned pros. We also carry a variety of unique Catskill souvenirs and gifts. Visit us online at campcatskill.co or in the store to gear up for your next journey. Adventure starts at camp Catskill. Also embark on a transformative journey with another summit.

[01:05:39] Another summit is dedicated to serving veterans and first responders with free outdoor activities. Activities like walks in nature, paddling, hiking, and even backpacking. Join our supportive community to rejuvenate in nature's embrace. Experience commodity, adventure, and healing at no cost. Take your next step with another summit and ascend to new heights of resilience and joy. Apply today on another summit.org. All right. All right. So let's get on to the guest of the night. Let's go.

[01:06:10] I found out I have to do that really quick to match the little intro that I had to do. So I have to do that really quick. So Lori, you're the first one. Like always. Awesome. So Lori, thank you for joining us tonight. Lori Rankin joins us from the Forest Fire Tower Lookout Association. Oh my God. Sorry, Lori. Forest Fire Lookout Association. Forgive me. So that is not just based in New York state. It is based all around the United States.

[01:06:38] She is a part of something that is massive across the United States that just like not about the little fire towers that we have here, but ones they have 10,000, 12,000 feet over Oregon, California stuff all over the place. But Lori joins us tonight to talk about some updates with the fire tower and the Catskills, some problems that we're having in the Catskills with the fire towers. And, you know, what else is going on in the Catskills with the fire towers that we can look forward to and stuff.

[01:07:06] So great to have you on again, Lori. Well, thanks for having me. I can always talk fire towers. You can always talk Catskills, Lori. Like you, you and Tom are, damn, I can't, I look forward to retiring. I mean, you are busy as heck. You're not just like we can look a little bit of background, you know, you're not just for the forest fire lookout association. You're also for the Adirondack 46 is correct. Yeah.

[01:07:33] I am finishing up my last year as past president. Wow. I had three years as director, three years as vice president, three years as president, and three years as past president. But I will say that there are other things there that I absolutely love to do. One is the trailhead steward program.

[01:07:55] One is the trail crew work that we do, which is really, really extensive up there in the Adirondacks. I just really believe since retired that part of my love for the outdoors is giving back to it. And so I, and it doesn't mean you don't hike either by volunteering, you know, gives you a reason to get out there. So yeah. Right.

[01:08:23] In the Catskills, I have been involved with the Balsam Lake fire tower. Gosh, I think something like 17 years. Not even that. Oh, wait, your, your father was stationed at Bramley or Balsam Lake? Balsam Lake. My dad was the observer there. Awesome. So I kind of grew up there. Tom and I, as I said, we love to hike.

[01:08:48] So aside from Catskill hiking, we are regular and winter 115ers. So we've done a lot of hiking in the Northeast. We also do state high pointing. I believe we're up to 37 state high points. Wow. And we, we do a little bit of birding.

[01:09:10] We did an unusual trip this past spring, going to Nebraska to see the witness, the Sandhill crane migration, which was tens of thousands of birds. The most, you can't even describe it. It was wonderful. Um, and we have 10 grandkids. Wow. Damn. We were really hard hanging out with them and taking them outdoors. Yeah.

[01:09:39] Oh, God damn. So Lori basically doesn't have a day of rest. I sleep well at night. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so now we, we, we, you were previously on episode 105 and 39. So Bramley mountain. And then when she was talking in general about the fire towers, but still like you have been involved with the fire towers ever since when was your dad stationed at 1960s or correct? Uh, he was actually stationed there from 57 to 72.

[01:10:10] Wow. So you've been involved with the fire towers since the, since you were born. Yeah. Wow. So what, what can you tell us about that? What, what is your first experience of going up to the fire tower? Um, so I, I remember, um, things that, uh, were just all about the outdoors.

[01:10:33] So I remember, um, hearing a bird, which as an adult, I learned with the white throated sparrow, but I always knew we were getting close to the tower when I would hear that bird sing. And to me, it was the tower bird. Hmm. One of the things that, uh, we did, um, was we flew paper airplanes out of the fire tower, off the fire tower and out of the cab. And, um, of course we had to retrieve them.

[01:11:01] Oftentimes one flight would, you know, take two hours of our time to try to find it and get it back, you know? So that, yeah, there was lots of really good things. Wow. Now that's, it's amazing to have once again, that involvement in the cat skills and just nature in general, since that young age till now of where you're pouring your heart and soul out for these mountains, just not here, but in the Adirondacks as well. And stuff.

[01:11:30] So kudos to you and Tom for, for doing your hard work, for keeping our places. Once again, as we hear heard earlier in the show, like you're, you're volunteering just makes an impact. That's, you know, just awesome. Like fire tower. They got to admit that's a lot of people's first time besides red hill, their first time, uh, fire tower. Cause it's, it's super easy from any direction. It's super easy. It's super fun. And it offers one of those views. So like you guys probably get a good amount of visitors.

[01:12:00] We do. And we, we also get a lot of those first timers and a lot of young, young people. I mean, children can manage that hike. And, um, it was an unusual day if we don't have an infant that's being carried up and you know, an older sibling, maybe three or four years old that they've hiked it themselves. Nice. Nice. Yeah.

[01:12:25] I mean, it's just, it's, it's crazy that, uh, once again, you're getting all these people and we've seen a, of course, boost since, since COVID, of course, uh, since, since social media. I mean, you've said you've been involved with, or up awesome lake mountain since for 17 years. So the increase has got to be absolutely insane dramatic. It is. It is. Um, we did see quite a shift actually in 2019, which was the first year of the Catskill fire tower challenge.

[01:12:55] And then of course in, um, 2020, that was just, just amazing, um, number of people. And it, it went back down. We're kind of holds holding steady now for a full steward day somewhere in the mid forties for our steward time from 10 to four on a Saturday or Sunday. Wow. Wow. So, so Laurie, tell us about the F F L A.

[01:13:22] It almost sounds like a, a European soccer association. I wish you had all those F's, but the, uh, forest fire lookout association. Tell us what that's about and, uh, what it does and what your role with the F F L A is. Sure. So, um, it's an all volunteer organization.

[01:13:43] Um, it was formed in 1990, a group of people who love fire towers got together in Pennsylvania and they said, let's really make this formal. Um, and they put together the, the bylaws and the rules and regulations, membership costs $5. Wow. Um, and, um, that was nice. That was 1990, of course. Mm-hmm .

[01:14:07] And, and, and the mission is to, uh, research the history of fire towers and to educate, um, folks about that history. And to support, um, actual fire detection still because in many states and Canada and Australia, we do actually have people who are still manning fire towers.

[01:14:30] Um, we also, um, do some, uh, interpretation and, um, other things. Uh, but those are the main missions. And of course in some. Places they're called lookouts here in the Northeast and New York state, we call them towers. Uh, so I am the, uh, New York state director. Uh, we have, we have different, um, chapters throughout the United States.

[01:14:58] Some of them, for example, Massachusetts, um, Connecticut and Rhode Island are one chapter, of course, because they're smaller states. Um, but, uh, many of, many of the, uh, chapters are extremely busy. And New York state is one of the busiest, uh, our membership, I believe is third or fourth in the nation. Mm-hmm . And, uh, we, we have, are blessed with just a ton of volunteers.

[01:15:26] And we are currently, as of this year, we are doing, um, six steward programs around New York state. And, uh, we hold VSAs for, I believe, 13 fire towers. Maybe it's 15 now. Um, and that's the, uh, volunteer service agreement with, uh, either New York state or New York state parks. Hmm.

[01:15:52] To not just do steward programs, but to do, um, maintenance, uh, both on the trails and on the fire towers and the cabin. So how responsive is the DEC or the state parks association to the FFLA? Uh, it, some places across the state, they're, they're just amazing. They are fantastic to work with.

[01:16:23] Um, I, I, as a general rule, um, we, uh, uh, we have a really nice working relationship with the DEC. And, and does that hold true in the Catskills? Um, not as much in the Catskills. Why is that? Well, we do not hold any agreements in the Catskills.

[01:16:49] So in the Catskills, we, um, are just simply supporting what is already there. Um, as we do with any other fire tower around the state, we try to provide technical assistance, support, training, historical information, whatever we might be able to do. And we, we try to be a voice for, uh, whatever, uh, fire tower needs a voice.

[01:17:19] So for example, in the Catskills, um, we were talking earlier about views. Mount Tremper does not have a, that's the one I left out. Yeah. Mount Tremper doesn't have a, um, a, uh, steward group. And, um, their view shed is really, really closing in. Yeah.

[01:17:44] And so we have been talking to the DEC and saying, Hey, the unit management plan says you should maintain the view shed. And thus far it's fallen on deaf ears. Do you literally, do you literally mean deaf ears? They haven't gotten back to you. You're the, like the official organization and you're a national organization. You're not just a bunch of like people working out of their basements or their garage, right?

[01:18:13] You're a legit organization. And the DEC hasn't responded to your requests regarding opening up the view shed for Mount Tremper. That's correct. Wow. Isn't that crazy Stosh? We have been, Lori and I have been talking to each other about this. I don't know for how many years, four or five years. Yeah.

[01:18:35] How I was just like, we were both like, wow, this is like the treetops are hitting the bottom, not hitting, but coming in close with the bottom of the, the, the windows. Like, and how, how tall is that tower? That's only like, that's a small one. I think it's a 45, uh, 45 footer. But that's, that's, that's crazy. Cause that offers a insane view of, of the boroughs range.

[01:18:59] And then up there, you got, uh, the hunter and, and devil's path, but to have a fire tower lose its viewpoint. Like that's especially one that's on a challenge. Yeah. A big challenge is promoted by New York state. It's just a big, what the that's. Yeah. Um, and I, I don't know if you, you knew, excuse me, but the, um, there was a beautiful viewpoint at the base of the fire tower that looked right out on the devil's path.

[01:19:29] That was absolutely gorgeous. There is no sign of that anymore. Oh, wow. Wow. I had no clue of that. You have a beautiful, healthy forest because that fire tower protected that area for so many years. And now it's kind of overtaking the fire tower. Wow. Now. Yeah. So, I mean, uh, we, we talk about the woes let's, uh, how many fire towers with you involved in the FFLA are there in the New York state region?

[01:19:57] I think in New York state, we have 72 standing towers. Wow. Cool. That's a, that's awesome. I mean, like, like you don't have to, once again, they're all over the place. I know there's, there's a couple in the finger lakes, one up towards Oneonta that is sitting on just top of a little tiny bump. Like they're all over the place. You just gotta, you gotta look for them. You gotta do your research. Yeah, we have, we have, we maintain a website, uh, nysfsla.org.

[01:20:25] Uh, we have all of the fire towers listed, whether they are standing or whether they have been removed or whether they are open to the public or whether they are private. So people can find that information, um, quite easily. It's a searchable list. I'll have that in the show notes. How many, uh, are accessible to the public? I'm sorry. I don't have that answer. Okay. Okay. Okay. Just curious.

[01:20:54] There's a majority of them are, but there are certainly some which are private. Correct. Uh, I know there's one that didn't, Ted, didn't they recently, somebody had one like transferred or something down to the Ashokan area. Somebody like flew it down there and then like propped it up and, and has it down in the Ashokan part. Yeah. I'm unaware of that. That's kind of an interesting thing. Um, so there, there is one, it was the old Petersburg, which was in Skoharie County.

[01:21:24] Um, it kind of, kind of got taken down, moved around to a few different places that ended up in somebody's field. Hmm. And the gentleman who does live very close to the Ashokan reservoir, um, went and picked all of the parts out of the field and all of the nuts and the bolts. And he put it back up on his property. Wow. And that is listed on our website. It's the bearing, um, excuse me, the night fire tower.

[01:21:53] And the, um, he will, with permission, if you give him a call, be happy to show you his tower. Wow. He does not have a fully enclosed cab up the top. He left it as an open observation, um, platform and it's got a really nice view. So you can, you can base jump off it if you want to. Um, yeah, you know, with his permission, with a few hard sliders and you know, yeah.

[01:22:21] I mean, those open tops are, are different. Those are fun. Cause they have a lot of those up in Vermont and New Hampshire. So those are fun. Yeah. Cool. Cool. I didn't know about that. So maybe I'll, I'll get ahold of him and we'll have him talk about that on the show. That's a, what was his name again? So it's, it's night, Barry night. Okay. It's on the, listed on the website. It's the night tower. K N I G H T. And his phone number is 518 999 1212. Everybody call him.

[01:22:50] It's going to be Graham mountain all over again. Yeah. Um, so now with this, we have the fire tower challenge. Like how, how deep are you guys involved with the famous fire tower challenge? Once again, you said it's, it's taken a big boom ever since COVID. So, so let me ask which fire tower challenge are you talking about? Uh, I mean the Catskills. The, I mean, we have five and now we have seven. Yes. So the Catskill fire tower challenge was developed by New York state DEC.

[01:23:19] When the CAG, the Catskill advisory group was meeting. The, I believe the language that they used was that the fire towers could handle the, a large group of people, larger numbers of people because the roads were hard. They were hardened. They were hardened. Jeep roads. And there would be less environmental impact.

[01:23:48] I'm not sure that I entirely agree with that because as you know, many of the fire towers have more than one trail and they were hardened fire tower roads a long time ago. Um, many of them have not been, um, you know, maintained as a road since the seventies.

[01:24:08] Uh, the one, one change there might be, um, Hunter because they did improve that after they got a quarter million dollar grant, um, from after Irene and, um, Overlook is also, um, utilized by communications equipment people. Um, but there are, there are certainly other trails to most of the fire towers and other trails were created.

[01:24:38] So I'm not sure about the impact. And I also feel like if you're going to encourage people to come and visit that you need to make sure that the towers are in good condition and the trails are in good condition. Was that, was that the, the, at, at the time when they, they introduced it, how, uh, how do you think that the trails and fire tower conditions were at the time?

[01:25:05] Like we had, of course, I remember tremper didn't have like some of, some of the, the windows were, uh, crazily done. Um, there was a little bit misleading information on red hill because the parking area was crazy. So. Yeah. The, the, the DEC did make some, um, changes and improvements at, at Hunter. As I said, they improved the road. Um, Hunter also had a significant, uh, grant so that they could paint the fire tower.

[01:25:35] They, uh, region four of the DEC is responsible for Hunter and they do a fantastic job of taking care of and maintaining the, um, observers cabin. It's had new roof, new siding. It had foundation work. It has a new porch. It has new windows, new doors. They were up there last fall. Gosh, it was so cold, but they were going to finish their work. Mm hmm. So they've, they've, the, it, it kind of depends.

[01:26:04] Um, they also, uh, did work on the, uh, Becker hollow, uh, trailhead parking area at Mount tremper. They did create a new trail. The one that comes off of Jessup road and a parking area there. And, uh, out at red hill, of course, they created a new trail and a new parking area there at overlook. They created two new trails and a new parking area. Yeah. So they, they have seen some improvement.

[01:26:31] Um, Baltimore Lake, they have done none of the above. So, um, they are not, uh, they have not, uh, I'll say spread the wealth evenly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sorry, sorry. I just, uh, you know, I, you say that Jessup road, I, I suggest everybody go up that, that way to Mount tremper because it's the, one of the most fantastic besides a couple other trails. That is a fantastic way to get up tremper.

[01:26:59] Nice, smooth, easy, just beautiful hikes. So everybody stopped going from that one part of two 14. I think it's two 14. It's, uh, and, uh, yeah, go up Jessup road. So once again, sorry, go ahead, dad. Sorry. Sure.

[01:27:14] So before we move on to Balsam Lake fire tower and the deficit in spending or no spending that's occurred over there, let's talk about just briefly. If you want the fire tower lighting that's coming up in September, I know Stosh hits on it. Um, but what, what's it all about?

[01:27:39] I mean, I, other than they shine lights or something on these fire towers, why, what would be your case for somebody who lives in long Island or somebody lives down in New Jersey or even Hudson Valley? Why should they hop in their car and drive two to four hours up to the Catskills to watch the lighting of the fire towers? We, this was, this will be our 13th year, Ted of doing this.

[01:28:05] And the whole premise was that there were a lot of people 13 years ago who were saying, why was this fire tower here? And we weren't seeing the major fires that, uh, we are seeing across the United States and even across the, in Europe. And, and so people were really puzzled as to why fire towers were there.

[01:28:26] And, uh, we really wanted to showcase the way that fire towers protected the local community, the homes, the businesses and the forest. And we thought a good way of doing that was to put lots of information out around the community and ask people to look up and see a light come on at the top of the mountain at a certain time on a certain date and remember who served there.

[01:28:56] And, um, that first year it was just a Catskills, um, uh, program. It was initiated by, uh, Doug Hamilton from the Red Hill fire tower. Nice. And it got rave reviews and nobody was going to pick it up. So the FSLA picked it up and have carried on with it. And now we do it statewide. Hmm.

[01:29:21] As of, as of earlier today, we have 30 fire towers participating thus far for this year. And I will tell you some of the most moving stories have come out of this. Um, one of the best photographs I got was of a gentleman, older gentleman sitting in a lawn chair alongside Route 28 in the Adirondacks.

[01:29:46] Um, he had spent a great deal of his life at snowy mountain fire tower and he could see the tower from that roadside place. And so his family members brought him there so he could see that light come on. And that was just the most beautiful picture of this man. And, and there was, there was no light in the picture at all, but it was this man having those memories and, and that opportunity to see the tower again.

[01:30:13] Um, we have also added the, um, reading of the, uh, people who served in the fire towers as part of, um, the lighting. Um, so at 830 on Saturday night, September 5th, weather permitting, um, the tower lights will come on. And, um, people will read the observer's names. Um, the light will stay on for a half an hour.

[01:30:42] We are this year allowing, um, if an illuminator wishes to, um, to have them keep the light on till 930. Um, we are not doing it as a hiking event. We do not organize hikes for people to go to the mountain and look at the tower. Um, that was not our original premise. And I assure you, there's a lot of work behind the scenes to put this together.

[01:31:10] And if we have organized hikes, oh my. Um, so, so, uh, you know, we keep with the original premise. We have, uh, wonderful, um, community support. Uh, we have people who, um, have, uh, dinner and the lighting. We have dessert and the lighting. There may be something for Bramley. We're in the works of that will be happening, um, in Bloomville where you can look right up and see the tower.

[01:31:39] We have a horse strong, um, uh, carriage rides in one place to get lighting. So there's, there's the communities that really grabbed ahold of this and taken off with it. So, uh, but if I wanted to hike up to a fire tower on the 5th, I could do that. Sure. You can. If it's a public tower. Sure. You can. Nobody's going to stop you from doing that. Yeah.

[01:32:04] So you guys just don't sponsor or organize the hikes, but if an individual or a group wanted to make their way up there, they could do that. Sure. So I guess the, the next question not as obvious is where should we go in the Catskills? If we don't want to hike up to a fire tower per se, but we want a great spot to view the fire towers, whether it's hiking up another mountain. Stosh mentioned earlier, giant ledge.

[01:32:34] Uh, but what are some of the other great spots? You mentioned, uh, a fellow up the under on decks on 28, but where would you recommend people go in the Catskills to check out the towers? To try to answer that question on our website, you will find a lighting button. You'll click on that and lighting of 2026. And we've done two things. If we have someone who has told us there is a great location like alongside a road.

[01:33:02] Um, so for Hunter, for Overlook, for Balsam Lake, you will find some hints for roadside places where people can look up. But the other thing that we've done is we put in a link to Hey, what's that? Which is like peak finder. And then you can reverse engineer. So if you look at, uh, for example, Balsam Lake and it says you can see Bel Air mountain and it's eight air miles away.

[01:33:30] If you go to Bel Air, you can see Balsam Lake. And so we have those links there for every tower that, um, is lighting. So we, we try to provide as much information as we can. We can't for every one of the towers because we just, I'd love it if I could spend my whole time going out there and looking around, but I can't. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah.

[01:33:55] It's, uh, I mean, a lot of people, I remember last year or something that people saying, you know, pulling over on the side of road of an overlook on like route nine or something like that. You can see overlook and what's the out there or something like there's a lot of like pull offs that you can get to see at least one or two. Yes. Yes.

[01:34:15] We actually have some people, um, who make a contest out of driving around as fast as they can from point A to point B to see as many towers as they can rather than staying stationary. Wow. Um, you know, people, people kind of take these things and run with it. Yeah. It's, uh, you know, I remember it's for us. It's a good opportunity. What was that? Go ahead.

[01:34:47] Um, so there's going to say for us, it's a really good opportunity to speak to, um, uh, people about what the FFLA is and about fire tower histories. You know, we do, we do some really nice, uh, interviews like, like here, uh, that, that, uh, uh, this time of year, uh, it really is good. Yeah. It's, it's great. Once again, to have someone up there to, once again, to give the pass along the history of this. Yeah.

[01:35:16] And stuff, you know, once a lot of people don't know the history of the fire towers. And if there's first time visiting, they, they get a 360 degree view. So it gets them hooked. Yeah. And also like having a steward up there is so great to get them even more hooked to say, like, cause they just, you know, they'll follow with the history and then they'll go into a deep rabbit hole of, you know, what else is out there. And then they'll complete the five, the, the fire tower challenges, the seven fire towers.

[01:35:45] And then they'll start the 3500 and stuff and be like, Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. With that. Um, I have, uh, for the, the fire lighting of the fire towers events. There's once again, a bunch of different places. We talked about Bel Air giant ledge. You can see three. I'm pretty sure slide. You can see two, maybe three overlook tremper and hunter. Yeah. You know, I'm not sure you can see tremper from slide. It's hit. I believe it's hidden. By Panther.

[01:36:15] Oh yeah. Um, West kill. You have, um, uh, really good view. Uh, you can get the, uh, Buckridge lookout. Indian head looks over at overlook. Peek and Moose has two or three. So yeah, there's, I mean, there's a lot of options. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of options. So yeah, so good. Good. So that's really good.

[01:36:40] So now let's throw the dog poop at the face. And Lori, we have been talking about this for quite a few years. Yeah. The Balsam Lake fire tower. When did that go into decommission to when people couldn't view it? When, when we talk about what year? So 1972, when my dad left, he was the last, um, full-time observer there.

[01:37:09] After that, they hired people seasonally for when there was high fire danger. Now when, like, when was it if like with the, with the woes that are happening with the, the volunteering and stuff like that with the, like the decaying of the floors and stuff. When was that last time you could actually enter the fire, the cabin? Okay. So that's the observer's cabin. Observer's cabin. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah.

[01:37:35] So at Balsam Lake, the observer's cabin is a very integral part of the educational program that we have there. Um, as you know, there are no, uh, ground views. If people, um, are not comfortable climbing the tower, um, they, they don't get a view. The, uh, the, uh, observer's cabin was made into a museum, uh, many, many years ago.

[01:38:01] Um, uh, the Catskill fire tower project started in 1996. Balsam Lake reopened in 2000, the fire tower, and then the cabin the following year.

[01:38:16] So what happened was in 2019, DEC shared the, uh, an inspection, a building inspection with me that said that the floor supports, um, needed, um, to be repaired. And, uh, that inspection was done in July of 2019. And to date in August of 2026, there have been no repairs yet.

[01:38:45] And so we kept, we kept using the cabin for a bit of time, but as the floor became softer and softer, it was unsafe. And, uh, eventually the, uh, cabin was closed to both the public and to the steward use. Does that answer your question? Definitely. Definitely. Okay. So since 2019, we've had problems with this. Yeah.

[01:39:14] And you've brought this up probably every event you could actually possibly done. Like the CAG, you know, I can remember when I was in with the club, the Catskill 3500 club as second vice president, you bring in this, this up. And the impacts that they was having towards the, the people visiting and stuff and the fire tower, kind of like the, the impact of the amount of people coming up.

[01:39:43] And it's been going on for that long. It has. Oh, wow. It has. As I said, it was 2019 when there was an official concern and, uh, there has no repairs made, no emergency stabilization. And, uh, if there is a plan in place, it has not been shared with me as to what's going to happen going forward. Wow.

[01:40:09] So is it stance, Lori, is it fair to say then, well, let's start with, did the DEC tell you folks, the FFLA, no more entry or access to the observers cabin? Did they, the DEC shut it down because of their concerns? They did at some point in time, but I had already for years expressed my concern before they took that step.

[01:40:36] And, and I should quantify that my role has been as a volunteer at, at Balsam Lake. And I have been the volunteer coordinator, um, since 2005. No, 2005, I was a volunteer. 2000 and I'm terrible with dates. I wrote it down 2010. I started becoming the volunteer coordinator.

[01:41:03] And, um, as such, we maintain that cabin, um, museum, which the UMP clearly states on page 13, the stabilize the cabin for potential use by staff. Use for emergency situations, search and rescue and fire management. Staff the tower for summer months by volunteers or interns to provide interpretation and security.

[01:41:31] So that's been there for a long time. But, uh, again, nothing has been, um, done repair wise. Um, finally, it rose to the occasion that, um, it was impacting, um, the number of volunteers we had because they were not feeling safe going into the cabin. Visitors could no longer visit the cabin.

[01:41:58] So our educational program was markedly changed. Uh, our volunteers, as both of you know, you've been there. The summit of Balsam Lake is over 3,700 feet. It can be very nice in the valley and very stormy on top. And if we have volunteers in the past that would have a thunderstorm roll through or heavy downpours, they could go in the cabin.

[01:42:25] When it passed, they could come back out, greet the public again. Now they have no place to go except the privy when something like that happens. Yeah. Well, that. So even going, even going to the lean to doesn't work because the lean to, uh, leaks so badly that you can't stay dry in the lean to either. Plus it's quite a hike down to the lean to. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So go ahead.

[01:42:54] So, so we just don't really understand why the hesitation on fixing things. Um, and, uh, you know, I've done several, uh, uh, letter writing came campaigns. I have spoken to local officials. I actually had a, um, in 2022, I actually had a, um, a licensed contractor come and take a look.

[01:43:20] Um, he put together a report, a condition assessment, uh, regarding the floor. He gave us a materials list. I love you. Um, I went and obtained three estimates for the materials. I gave all of this to the DEC and nothing happened. They. So in the war, Lori, in 2022, what were the numbers you were talking about on these estimates, materials and labor?

[01:43:48] Just, just for the, uh, material estimates. Um, the highest estimate was $6,600 and the lowest one was $2,100. Hmm. And in terms of what was the labor cost on that? This was just materials. Okay. Okay. And did the, do you have any idea what the labor would be? This is replacing floor joists. Is that what we have going on? Yes, sir. Yes.

[01:44:16] We don't have any foundation damage. Not at that time. No. Do we have foundation damage now? Is it progressed because of neglect? I, I, I haven't seen any reports. I know that the DEC did do an engineering report last fall. Um, and, uh, I was told that the, um, the report indicates an extensive amount of rehabilitation will be necessary, but what that is, I do not know because they did not share the report

[01:44:46] with me. Yeah. So have you foiled that from the DEC? I, I have not. No. I'm going to put that on my list. I'm going to. Yeah, Ted's good at that. Got my own account with them. Ted, Ted is going to be your secondhand man on this though. Now, Lori, you said it was like maximum cost 6,600. Now, I remember you sharing some information saying that the DEC had a different cost.

[01:45:16] What was that cost? So at a meeting this spring with the DEC, uh, we were told between 600 and $800,000. I just, I didn't say why it was so much is because you're flying the material up with helicopters or. They, they, they did not give any indication as to where those numbers came from. And the footprint for the building is 16 feet by 27 feet. Yeah. So, wow.

[01:45:45] So I mean, the helicopter ride is expensive, but so is the, the cat or school clove unit management plan. That was 600 fricking thousand dollars that I could have done myself. How about the blue hole? The blue hole. How much money have they spent there? Yeah. Uh, but then the, the cabin, you know, that, that, you know, maybe will spark 20 interest, you know, 20 little kids interest of the Catskills and maybe influence them into forest, uh, rangers

[01:46:14] in the future, you know, that they could go in and see this amazing history that has been in the Catskills, but no, they won't do anything for that. So, yeah. I would like to add that the cabin and the fire tower are both on the national historic register. And, um, the, um, the UMP actually says that, uh, is the, on page three, it is Balsam Lake is a historical resource that will be preserved.

[01:46:43] It says on page 36, it's a conforming structure, Balsam Lake, one tower and cabin on the side. And cabin. Um, so we are, we are talking about a historical place, the site of the oldest fire tower in the state of New York. Um, we are talking about the educational program that is there. One thing that just happened.

[01:47:09] So, um, the DEC is apparently, um, cleaning out the observer's cabin right now. I don't know if that means they're going to, um, preserve it or if that means they have plans to take it down. I don't know, but I was asked to come to the Catskill visitor center on the 30th of July to

[01:47:34] help sort out items from the cabin because they didn't know what belonged to the DEC and what belonged to the Catskill fire tower project. One of the items was an Indian tank. I don't know if either of you are familiar with what that is. For firefighting. That's correct. Yeah. For wildland firefighting, the Indian company in Utica, New York built these, um, metal tanks with straps on them, backpack straps. Yeah. It was like a backpack.

[01:48:03] So you can carry water to a fire. Yeah. Had a, had a hose and a metal like wand and you would pump it up to get some pressure and you could spray it. It's kind of like a glorified, you know, a garden or lawn spraying device. The tank was made out of galvanized steel as I remember. Yep. So yeah, I'm old enough to remember those things. We call it a giant super soaker. Yeah.

[01:48:29] Part of our educational program is to take every opportunity we have to provide interpreted historical information and education. And it's a very unusual looking item. So we have that either in the cabin or out in the clearing. And we have that full of water. Our volunteers would go to the spring, fill it full of water, 40 pounds. Wow. Carry it up. And then we would have a visitor who would say, what is that?

[01:48:59] And it would give you an excellent opportunity to share the history, to talk about fire prevention. And we would let them, we had, we have little laminated flame so they could squirt water and put the fire out. And adults and children alike loved it. Well, we don't. Would they get like a stuffed animal if they hit the flame? No, we have, we have Smokey Bear Frisbees and tattoos. Well, that's just as cool. And we have all kinds of stuff like that.

[01:49:26] So if the, if the DEC were to hand the FFLA the keys to the cabin tomorrow, does the FFLA have the resources to put together the volunteers, the fundraising and what it takes to repair, restore, rehabilitate the Observer's cabin?

[01:49:50] I, I, because I have not seen what the latest report is. Um, I can't 100% answer that, but I, I would 95% answer that and say, yes. Uh, we have lots of resources at our disposal. The Catskill Fire Tower project has been taking donations since 1996. There are funds there.

[01:50:15] There are certainly grant funds for historic preservation, for education and stewardship that are available. Um, and we have many, many volunteers who would stay, who have asked what they can do to help. Is the FFLA undertaken a project like this before?

[01:50:35] Um, we have done, uh, several different, um, things, nothing structural in terms of, uh, like if, if there is something that has to be done foundation wise. But you guys have like, like put up like Sterling Fire Tower and stuff like that. Like all these different places have erected in the past five years that it's just been. Like pretty crazy. It's been amazing.

[01:51:02] I, it's nothing like an Observer cabin, but still it's, it's a big impact. Yeah. Yeah. We've done, uh, we've done, uh, on a volunteer basis, we've done several fire tower, um, restoration projects where we, um, you know, re, are redoing the stairs and redoing the landings on the fire towers. Um, we've been. Bramley. Yeah. Bramley Mountain. A whole new fire tower. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:51:28] So, uh, I, uh, I am sure we have some, uh, resources and expertise that we could get our hands on. So, but, but Laurie, is it fair to say that if the DEC turned over their engineer report, whatever other relevant information they have regarding the condition of the Observer's cabin and what the indicated repair and rehabilitation is.

[01:51:52] And it's fair to say, it sounds like the FFLA is a, an organization with enough organizational structure and control that you would be able to look at that material and you could decide whether or not you wanted to go forward or not. You're not just going to send some people up there tomorrow and start demolishing or doing demo work without knowing the full scope of what you're getting into. It's am I right? That's correct.

[01:52:18] And, and, but I will, I will also say the DEC is unlikely to allow like an, like I suggested that I could get an engineer up there to look at that in the past. So DEC won't let you do it. No, it had to, it had to be an engineer that engineers had to submit bids. They had to go through a bidding process. They spend a lot of time with the, we can't because yeah. Spend a lot of time and the money. Yeah. So let me, this is my question.

[01:52:49] Where is the Catskill center on this? What have they done? What should they be doing? Are they doing all you think they can do? What's the Catskill centers position? I really haven't seen the Catskill center do anything regarding this. Yeah, I guess that would be a question for Jeff Centerman because I, I really haven't, I haven't seen them up there.

[01:53:17] They were, they were storing items because they, excuse me, they managed the Catskill fire tower project. They were storing items at the Catskill visitor center. Mm-hmm. But sadly their, their staff really didn't know what a lot of the items were that we have these educational pieces there.

[01:53:40] Like the, like the Indian tank, they, they, they didn't know what part of the educational piece that was. I mean, I could have looked at that and known what it was. Yeah, you, you would have. So now lists with, with this, as we kind of move on with the, the observer cabinets, it's, it's kind of a big deal once again, because it's historic, it's educational. And once again, it brings interest into the Catskills.

[01:54:09] So now, with all this going on, is there any way to take it up to like another level? Can we go above state because it's national historic, right? Like how, how would we be able to bring it up another notch and tell, I'm like, I hate to say this. I like to have good positive relationships, but tell the DC to fuck off. Let's, let's go up and, and bring this above another level and we can get this going.

[01:54:36] So I did speak with the state historic preservation officer. And they, they moved it back to what they called the cultural resource officer at region three. I don't know who that person is. They did not know their name. They did not. They just told me to, you know. And if we go over this, like a lot of people, you know, that are deep in the Catskills knows that region four is the most like taken care of.

[01:55:05] It's beautiful and stuff like that. But every other region kind of like gets neglected besides the blue hole and stuff like it's, it's, it kind of sucks. Like, you know, we have this historic place located up 3,700 feet that brings you to a beautiful view of the Western Catskills. And it's decaying.

[01:55:27] And then there are like people like, Oh, I want to check out, you know, you have the overlook area, the overlook cabin that shows you snakeskin and former tools of fire for like firefighting and stuff like that. And that's cool. Yeah. But they won't restore this one up on Balsam Lake. And it's pretty weird. Yeah, we have the same firefighting tools. We actually have snakeskins up there. We have a kid's touch board up there.

[01:55:55] We have, we just had all kinds of educational things there. So what's a touch board? It's a, it's, um, we had bear hair, we had porcupine quills. Oh, that's a little. Snake skins, things like that, that children can actually touch and we encourage them to touch. Yeah. And so that they don't go out in, in nature and try there.

[01:56:21] Um, it's a controlled environment and it gives us an opportunity to talk about, you know, forest fires prevent harm to these animals and other pieces. Yeah. So on that touch board, you, you of course have mountain lion hair, don't you? Oh, oh yes. Okay. As a matter of fact, we, we also had one of the things we had in the cabin is we had a lot of Smokey Bear posters.

[01:56:44] Smokey Bear being a national campaign on the mammal poster, there was a mountain lion. And it was often a, um, a question that adults would ask us about how many mountain lions we had seen. Let me show you right over there is where the rehabilitation project is beginning. Yeah. On that tower. Let me show you kids. The old radio tower.

[01:57:12] So Lori, when's the last time you were in the observer's cabin? Uh, I don't know. Well, I was in there last year because as of last year, we were still able to open the door, slide our gear inside the door. We couldn't go inside, but we could slide our gear inside the door. Um, and that's like a pop-up tent and like chairs and stuff, right? Oh, well, well, we had, we had the table.

[01:57:41] We had, we had the Indian tank. We had a canopy for, you know, some kind of protection from the elements. Um, we did have, um, we had a box, you know, where we could store our Smokey Bear stuff like that, et cetera. You know, all of that was whatever we could put right inside the door, but now it's all locked up. And so when you were in there last year, what was the condition like? Oh, I did not go in. I didn't go in.

[01:58:10] And I will tell you, Chad, the last time I was in there, the floors really was getting really soft. Yeah. So is there any evidence of like water infiltration into the building from the roof? Any other, no, no, the roof is, the roof is sound. Okay.

[01:58:27] The problem is, and according to the, um, uh, that contractor, um, he felt the cause was during past renovations, the basement vents and windows were boarded up, which did not allow for adequate ventilation. And it caused moisture buildup and eventual deterioration of the floor system. Gotcha.

[01:58:52] So it's rotting from the inside out from underneath is where the rod is from lack of air circulation, lack of venting. Yeah. Sounds like a project for Sean Iannucci, frankly, because he's got a background in, yeah, he's got a background in building inspection. So we'll have to fly him down. Sean. To check this out. All right.

[01:59:12] So w one of the things you, you mentioned that this is on the national register, not only the fire tower itself, but the associated structure structures, the cabin, the privy, uh, even the Jeep road are part of the, uh, elements.

[01:59:30] And when the D E sits, D E C sits back and crosses their hands and takes this do nothing approach, it's kind of like demolishing the building by neglect. Right. It's not like they're bringing up a bulldozer to knock it down. It's not like they're putting a torch to it to get rid of it, you know, in a couple days, but by sitting back or we said the report came out in 1990 or 2019. Yeah. Right.

[01:59:59] So the report now is seven years for seven years. They haven't done anything. You can't go into the building anymore. Eventually the floor is going to fall in the floor. Presumably as part of the support for the foundation walls to keep them from folding in. And it's just going to start crumbling down.

[02:00:19] And then eventually this level of neglect reaches the point where the D E C can say that it's a, an attractive nuisance or hazard to people. And we need to get rid of it because they're going to come in and get hurt. Somebody is going to walk in, climb in, whatever, to go in, check it out. Now it's an attractive nuisance. We need to demolish it.

[02:00:46] And it's a shame because as you point out, A, it's on the list already. It's not like you guys are trying to run out and put it on the list of historic places. And it was the first in the state of New York, right? Yeah. It's the site of the very first fire tower. There was a wooden tower put up there in 1886.

[02:01:08] So what, why is it you mentioned earlier that the fire, the, the cabin, the observers cabin on Hunter got a complete makeover. I think they even have cameras on it now. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I'm not wrong. There's cap, there's cameras there. Buck and flock cameras. Yeah. You can flock me on Hunter anytime you want. Okay.

[02:01:35] So why is it, why is it Hunter got the complete makeover, but Balsam Lake got overlooked? I, I wish I knew the answer to that. I know there is different leadership from region to region across the DEC. My letters to the region three DEC regional director have been answered with form letters. Wow.

[02:02:03] Um, I have not had a direct phone conversation with her. I, uh, I was able to, um, have a phone conversation with, oh gosh, I forget her title now. Yeah. I, I just, I, I don't know. I wish I knew. Yeah. That's, uh, I mean, that's sad.

[02:02:26] Do you think like when, if, if, so this is a big if, so if the DEC were to approve of like volunteers and us doing stuff like they did with like Bramley mountain. And I knew there was a whole different jurisdiction and stuff like that. Do you think they would let you use the, the road going up to, uh, to bring supplies up to the gate? And then we'd have to haul it up ourselves. Do you think they'd approve of that? Or do you think they'd be like, hell no.

[02:02:54] Or do you think like Tad and I could suffice enough money to get a helicopter to bring supplies up? Do you think they would approve of that? Or do you think they'd be like, hell no, New York state's got to do this. We got to get paid. I really, I really don't know. I do know that there was in the, um, volunteer service agreement, um, with permission and option for us to, to, if we needed supplies to bring them up on the road.

[02:03:24] Um, there's nothing in there about, um, bringing things in by air. So I don't know. Whoops. Generally, uh, you know, in years past when, when, um, we had to bring supplies. So for example, the, the rolls of wire for the safety wire along the staircases, nine times out of 10, Tom and I would, um, sled that gear up or that kind of stuff up in the winter time.

[02:03:54] We had, uh, pokes and we would poke them up because it's way easier than trying to, you know, trying to carry it. Even if we were able to drive to the gate, it was way easier than having to hand carry. So we would stuff up all the time. That's how they got the, the hemlock bark out of the woods in the winter. Yeah. Bring it down on sleds. We did.

[02:04:18] We did have a donation of lumber, um, for the fire tower to replace, um, and, uh, the landings and stairs. And, uh, we used the road to bring that to the gate and then we had to hand carry all that lumber up and I was quite a chore. Sure. Wow. When was that? Uh, I'm not certain maybe 2014, 15, something like that. Yeah.

[02:04:45] So that was a while those before kind of like social media and stuff like that took a big boom. So like, like I would seriously take a day off to do this kind of stuff. I would love to do that. So if anybody let's listening to the, this episode right now has a helicopter and wants to drop off, uh, some sort of supplies, like, like four by fours or something like that. Don't get ahold of me. Don't get ahold of Lori or don't get ahold of Tad and, uh, don't talk about it. We'll get ahold of it.

[02:05:15] But I mean, we have the woes with the fire towers in region three. Uh, we can go on and on about this, but let's talk about the, the positives of the fire tower. So we might have some rumors of some new fire towers being introduced to either the challenge or just the fire towers in general. Can you chat about this? Sure. So, um, rock wrist is a standing fire tower in Delaware County.

[02:05:44] It's owned by the town of Tompkins and it is on New York city DEP property. Um, uh, just as Bramley mountain was on New York city DEP property and the town of Tompkins and the FFLA work together last year. And we, uh, redid all of the stairs and the landings on this fire tower, which has been abandoned for years. Wow. We had support from the New York city DEP.

[02:06:15] Anything we wanted. The town of Tompkins had it there. They were awesome. Um, and, um, this year, uh, we, uh, are looking at having, um, some contractors come in for the work at the, um, cab level. We have to have some window replacements. Um, there's a roof panel that needs to be replaced.

[02:06:39] And so they, they want to have somebody who of course is certified to be in harness and, and, um, you know, safely can do that. Um, but we are hoping it's a very real possibility that that tower will be able to be reopened, um, this year. Um, there is a bit of a, uh, narrow window based upon, um, easement to get, um, uh, supplies in there.

[02:07:06] So it, it will see whether we can get it all done before that, um, occurs. Uh, the history on that, like, so we're over in the rock rift. This is, uh, is this a Cannonsville reservoir? It does overlook the Cannonsville reservoir. However, interestingly enough from the cab, you cannot see the reservoir. It's really interesting because it's just such a steep, uh, size, um, that the reservoir is buried in the bottom.

[02:07:36] And you cannot see it. At least not when the leaves are on. I haven't been there when the leaves were off in the cab, but. Ted, did you know about this? Like, are you familiar with it? No, I'm not familiar with it, but it's not surprising that you can't see the reservoir because who cares? The reservoir is going to burn, right? It's going to diminish. Yeah. Yeah. And then we're going to be able to see the towns again. Yeah. One of our, one of our, um, uh, questions that we've been discussing is when we put a map table in there, whether it will be pre or post reservoir.

[02:08:05] That's interesting. Because the tower was there pre reservoir. Okay. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. That's pretty crazy. And then like, I'm just, um, once again, the historical information that, that goes along with the rock rift with pre reservoir. So that means towns that were there before the reservoir was created that we can just put on that. That would be so cool. Wow. Once again, the historical stuff just.

[02:08:34] Ignites a flame in me. So now with this rock rift, it's not open yet. Uh, what would be the hike going to it? What would be the. So part of the hike is, uh, the finger lakes trail goes right along the base of the fire tower. And so there's more than one, um, opportunity to climb onto the finger lakes trail and visit the fire tower. The, um, shortest one, I think it's about three miles one way.

[02:09:02] And that comes off state route 10 alongside the reservoir and does utilize part of the, um, finger lakes trail. I didn't hear like 12 miles one time. Um, yeah, it depends again, where you want to access the finger lakes trail. If you go all the way down by the bridge, then you're talking six miles one way. Yep. Okay. So you can start where it ends or starts on slide mountain. Yeah. Where the finger just randomly starts or ends like on slide.

[02:09:32] And they have that big, beautiful sign that they were able to put up there for, for no apparent reason. But yet the signs that we want to donate money to, they will never put up, uh, whatever. So that's, that's cool. Once again, that's over Western part of the Catskills. We're overlooking the beautiful bumps of the Catskills and that'll be cool. Uh, what else is there? There's, there's a rumor for another one. And I got to admit this Lori is one of my favorite spots.

[02:10:00] It's very, yeah, it's a, it's a real gem. The Leonard Hill forest out in, um, uh, Schoherry County. Um, it is a drive up opportunity. It would be one of the fully, it would be a fully accessible site for people with access issues. However, I'll be doing a presentation on this actually on Monday night at the Conesville Historical Society.

[02:10:26] And while we've had some DEC feet dragging on it and the latest, I, I, I spoke with her to try to, uh, the Forester to try to get an update for this presentation I'm doing. And, and I will quote you what was said. So this is a project, a restoration project that the scope of work cost estimate, everything has been pre-approved, um, back in 24.

[02:10:56] No, excuse me, 23. So this is the update. I spoke with operations at the start of this season about starting the Leonard Hill project this year. And I was told that we had already reached the limit on how many projects and how much money we can assign to our job order contracting system contractor in one year. However, I recently spoke with one of the central office engineers and he asked about the status of the project.

[02:11:23] So I'm hoping I can line things up so that we can get this project in under the cap next year. I'm not sure what all that gobbledygook means except to say that they're not going to do it this year. Yeah. Uh, like, yeah, let's, uh, let's. So that, but, but it is, it is an approved project. I don't know why it's going so slowly, especially just a beautiful area out there. Really gorgeous.

[02:11:54] I visited that place. God, I don't know when had to be the before COVID. Okay. And that was when the first two sets of stairs were gone. Yeah. So I had to Spider-Man my way up to the third set of stairs to get up to the cabin and to find the rolling hills of the scary County area.

[02:12:21] You know, Mount Pisgah Richardson, Blackheads, Mount Luncianta, Morseville range was just one of those like, oh shit. I didn't know this, this existed moments, you know, without, you know, you got Mount U, which is amazing, but also has all these obstructed views of towers, cell phone towers and stuff. But then you've got Leonard Hill fire tower, which is absolutely stunning stuff.

[02:12:51] The last time I went there though, there was a white, uh, white faced hornets nest up there. And I got stung three times. My, my friend who was from the finger lakes went up there, didn't get stung once, but I got stung. So I defended him and that, but I will admit. Once again, I didn't know if that would be accessible by car up there, but it's a great road. We drove like halfway, three quarters of the way up and then hiked up because I wasn't sure of the road.

[02:13:19] But back in pre COVID days, I drove my good old Prius up there and it was nothing. So, yeah, the state, excuse me, the state did already make improvements to the road. Um, but this project has been taking a while. Um, the first time I visited with the DC was back in 2008. So, oh, wow. It's been taking a while and, um, the road is actually growing back in a bit already. It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful road.

[02:13:49] I got, I gotta admit because it has a lot of wildflowers on the side and all the pines and stuff like that. It's yeah. And it's got that at the base, like not even a quarter of mile off at that has historic cemetery. Right. That has like, that's correct 1800. It's like from the 1800s. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we have, we have put in an application, um, to have a steward program there.

[02:14:16] Um, so the DEC is aware of our desire to do that so that it will have an educational program and a presence. Lori, like, is there any way to, are we gonna like with the FFLA? Are you gonna like go legal with this? Like, is there any way or any thought of going a little bit, punching a little bit harder instead of.

[02:14:39] Uh, so, so what we'd really like to do as the FFLA as an organization is we would really like to work with these folks in a cooperative collaborative manner to the same goal of having these fire towers and these educational programs available. We are not a rich organization.

[02:15:03] Um, and if it comes to doing legal things, then you get into an awful lot of money. You get into an awful lot of human resources. Um, so we would, we would rather try our very best to work cooperatively. And, and unfortunately, if we're falling on deaf ears, I guess we have to look at other things. Um, to other ways to put pressure on, but.

[02:15:35] So with this, the FFLA and stuff like that, like, how is there a way that the listeners of the show, uh, people like me and Ted can like, uh, uh, reach out to anybody and everybody to kind of push this as it go forward. How about. So I would say, um, and I, I found the name, I'm sorry. I had forgotten it, but Katie Patronus is in the Albany office of lands and forest.

[02:16:03] And you could certainly email her. I have her email address. Yes, please. It's K a. T H. A. R. I N. E. Dot. P E. T. R. O. N. I. S.

[02:16:33] D. E. C. Dot. N. Y. Dot. Gov. Okay. And for Balsam Lake specifically, you could reach out to Kate Katie and you could also reach out to the region three regional director, Kelly Turturro. And I have her address as well. Okay. I will throw that in the show notes. Send me that, that, uh, that later on. So. Okay.

[02:17:00] I have a, I have a feeling, you know, once again, a lot of the people on this, that listen to show are advocates of, of mother nature and of advocates of the, the fire towers and support. You with your mission. And, and if they know you, they know that you are 100% in it for the cat skills and for nature and stuff. So that's, that's what we want. Right. Yes.

[02:17:26] And I, I thank you for the opportunity to talk about these issues and perhaps get some more support. Yeah. And that's what we're here for. I mean, once again, I hate to bash like a different organizations and stuff like that, but we need to all to come together as one. And I've, I've noticed this with the volunteering and stuff. Like, like I said, I haven't received any really proper training. Mm-hmm .

[02:17:52] And then a lot of people I know since post COVID area era have just been like, here, here's your trail, have fun. Yeah. And, uh, you know, people like you and me will reach out and then help them out. And, you know, Tad is out in the trail and just be like, don't touch this. This is a sacred oak tree that, you know, he's. I'll be out there with my, uh, Indian fire tank. There you go. Protecting the oak tree. That'd be good on your shoulder. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:18:21] That sounds like a new challenge, Tad. I, I, I think. Make you feel the pain. So Laurie, why haven't you guys tried like a move on petition and online petition? You're familiar with those? Um, I, I, I think more than anything, it's just the, um, you know, there's only so many of us and we are spread thin already. Gotcha. Yeah.

[02:18:44] And, and what about a letter writing campaign then to the, uh, state Senator or state assembly person who has balsam like a mountain in their legislative district? I, I have done that. Um, I have done that, uh, repeatedly. Um, I've also done that with Leonard Hill to get that one moving.

[02:19:08] Um, I have also spoken with, uh, local town supervisors, uh, because I feel strongly that we need to have local support. Um, so what's the, what's the feedback from the local supervisor? Um, are they supportive of this? They just giving you lip service or they not into this at all? What do you mean? You know, they're like, uh, I actually had a one on one personal, um, uh, meeting with the local town supervisor for Balsam Lake. It is the town of Hardenburg.

[02:19:38] It is a very small township. Yeah. And, um, I, I got lots of nodding and yes. And I heard nothing after. Um, I did follow that up with a couple of more letters, but I heard nothing. Yeah. When you say small township, it's, you know, I think that the town hall is in somebody's garage. Did I really say that? That was kind of bad, but yeah, it's on, it's on, it's on or near Ryder hollow. Isn't it? It is.

[02:20:08] It is. That's where I had my meeting. Oh, really? It's a little maple syrup thing on the side. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. There's all the, the, the vacuum lines along the road out there. Yeah. So Lori can, if I know this, you're, you're already doing amazing amount of work and we definitely everybody appreciates it here. Uh, you and Tom, once again, uh, if you could do like, if you have that kind of like

[02:20:33] rough draft that we can all send, just copy, copy and send, we can change our name, copy and send. We could have, you know, people just keep putting the pressure on New York state to do that as well. Send me that. But anybody who wants that, I will send that forward to you and we can put the pressure on to have the, all the different areas that, uh, Lori's looking into for conservation and stuff like that.

[02:20:59] We can kind of, let's just, just all come together and, and unite to, to have this place restored as a national historic national, like just to say that fucking national and it's not been done. Uh, that's just so, uh, but yeah. All right. So last question. This is a good question.

[02:21:22] So we, we appreciate you having on the show, Lori, uh, appreciate your hour and what are where were you on? I'm sitting on our and oh, it's like 20 minutes. Wow. Um, what about your post hike bruising bites? You do views and bruise. So what do you have, what do you have suggested? Well, you know, I, I, I like to go to a burritos and Phoenicia and get an order of curly garlic fries and probably a West kill IPA. That sounds good. That sounds good.

[02:21:53] So you're, you're a West kill IPA. Where does that, where does the, um, Catskill brewery devil's path, uh, IPA rank in your taste profile? I'll drink that too, but I prefer West kill. I think West kill has a little bit crisper. Yeah. Fresher taste to it. Yeah. Is it a, is it one of the, the pine bitey? I, cause I've never had the West kill IPA. No, no. Well, they have several different varieties. So it kind of depends on what they have on tap at Bria. Yeah.

[02:22:23] Okay. I've tried their stouts, but not their IPAs. I like their stout too. Oh really? Yeah. I gotta say, I like the cats, uh, the, uh, Catskill brewery. Devil's path. Cause it's got that lingering bite to it, that it's almost like it says to you when you're, when you're, that sip is lingering in your mouth, it says time for another. Exactly. I mean, you know, you know what else says time for another is that, uh, that place that

[02:22:51] you talk about, uh, 10 and Venetia that, uh, that you go to the local goods, you know, walk in there time for another, uh, are they still in business? It's been so long. I, you know, is bread alone still around? Right. Somebody told me they built, they built two bridges over the West branch. Is that true? Or is they were just pulling my leg. They're pulling your leg. No, no. You know, Richie, I talked to about it on the last, uh, show that his kids even said,

[02:23:20] why the hell isn't there a bridge built over the never sink from slide. Yeah. I mean, somebody told me there was like a gondola that goes over the West branch now. Well, if the gondola from the Panther mountain falls, it'll probably make create a bridge over the West. We could just bring it over or over the never sink. Like, yeah. So, all right. Well, maybe when I go hiking up there again, I can go into the observer's cabin. That'll be the first spot. We will go Ted on your initial hike.

[02:23:49] I'll bring Lori and Tom, uh, IPA from West kill. Yeah. 200 people when the, when tag gets back in the cat skills, it will be, uh, slide mountain. And we will do an inaugural hike of 200 people up to top of slide mountain. Yeah. That's that sounds like a DEC violation. If I, if we were to bring 200 people back, if we were to bring a group of 200 people back and we were to do a hike in the cat skills as a group hike, it would have to be.

[02:24:18] And I know, I know some of our listeners are avid listeners already know the answer to this. If we had 200 able bodied hikers going back into the cat skills, it would be occupy self double top. Correct. Actually. All right. All right. Now. Okay. I got the, the, and we would bring, we would bring kegs up. Like they were, um, Indian fire tanks. Right.

[02:24:48] The kegs of Westkill. Yeah. No other, no other food or fluids. We just bring beer in a can. Lori and Tom are going to be in on this and they're going to be totally on that. So we're going to build the cabin up there for us. She's like, good God, get me out of this. All right. All right. We're off the rails. All right. So Lori, thank you so much for joining us. Uh, once, once again, anybody who is listening and it's still listening.

[02:25:17] We're going to be doing the forest fire look out association and let's support Lori with her amazing efforts and let's get the cabin restored and get other restoration projects going in the cat skills. Let's work together. So thank you for joining us, Lori. We hope you had a good time and thank you for your, all your, your work in the cat skills. It's tremendous amount that we can. It's my pleasure. It really is. Most of the time. Well, thank you. We all appreciate it. Definitely. So have a good night.

[02:25:46] Uh, we'll hopefully see you in the future. Okay. Sounds good. All the best to Tom. Thanks. We'll send it. Bye. Bye. Bye everyone. I just want to thank you for listening to the show. If you enjoyed the show, subscribe and throw down a smooth review on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or any podcast platform that you use.

[02:26:11] You can also check daily updates of the podcast, hikes, hiking news, and local news on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and the official website of the show. Remember this. You got to just keep on living in the cat skills, man. L I V I am. Wicked, wicked, wicked, wicked.