Episode 124 - Graham and Doubletop. What Happened?

[00:00:00] But there sure is. I mean, I see it on social media. There's, for some people, a big emphasis

[00:00:07] on peak bagging for the sake of completing a list, earning a patch and being able to say that they

[00:00:15] did a certain hike or a certain summit. I agree. Look, if that's what you enjoy when you go into

[00:00:24] the woods, that's what you enjoy and that's good for you. I mean, it's good to get outdoors

[00:00:29] and to do these things. It's also good to play tennis if you're into tennis or golf.

[00:00:35] Yeah, people need to recreate. There's nothing wrong with recreation.

[00:00:39] I'm all for it. But the problem is we have more and more people populating the world

[00:00:46] and we have urban sprawl consuming more and more land and natural features.

[00:00:54] What happens to our right to recreate? You know, the Catskill Mountains are, it's only so

[00:01:00] large. The area is only so large. The bush wax were some of the worst days I've ever had in

[00:01:16] the mountains for life, really. Whereas Pants and Mountain is totally opposite to

[00:01:21] the mountain on top of the crater. I think the weather challenges on this incident were particularly

[00:01:28] difficult. It is really the development of New York State. Catskill's are responsible.

[00:01:38] All you're listening to inside the line, the Catskill Mountains are cast.

[00:01:48] All right. I might sound a little low, Ted, because I got a cold. I think it was from the

[00:01:58] Sum 41 show when I went into the pit for some of their songs and to the Mosh pit.

[00:02:04] So you do so at your own risk? Yes. It was a fantastic. We got there. We went down to our

[00:02:13] seats. So Jessica and I got seats because we knew that we wanted to sit because we're old

[00:02:18] and our knees would hurt. So we chatted with the security guard that was right in front of us. And

[00:02:23] I asked him, I'm like, even, even though I don't have this admission into like the general mission

[00:02:29] area, the pit area, can I go down in there? He's like, yeah, sure. I'll let you go down.

[00:02:34] So we watched the first band and halfway through the first band, he has to go.

[00:02:40] And we're like, oh no, I'm like, I'm not going to be able to get down there.

[00:02:44] All of a sudden Jess puts down her drink and sees that there's two general admission tickets

[00:02:49] down there for your wristbands. So I'm like, oh, beautiful time. That's my faith in humanity.

[00:02:55] Well, I would think with the pit area, there are no rules. Everything goes, right? So you even

[00:03:02] need a special ticket to get into the pit. I'm going to wear such a thing.

[00:03:06] Well, where it was was a general admission ticket. And then anything outside of that,

[00:03:12] you kind of pay a little bit more for because you have seats. So it's, I mean, you're touching

[00:03:18] everybody and stuff like that. What did my I don't want to hear about the touching. OK,

[00:03:23] don't tell us about how you touched everyone. It's not at all. I mean, I got this cold somehow

[00:03:29] and I'm thinking it's through there. But my friend said sometimes that shows it's called

[00:03:34] butts to nuts. It's horrible, isn't it? All right, folks. Well, that's it. We're going

[00:03:39] to end on a high note tonight. But tonight's you heard it first on inside the line. That's a wrap.

[00:03:46] Yeah. Quickest, quickest show ever. What did you what did you say?

[00:03:49] You the last show you went to was again, the cure. Madison Square Garden. I think it was

[00:03:58] 2017. Fantastic show. So is it all seats?

[00:04:04] Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm going to say yes, it was all seats. That's horrible. That's

[00:04:08] obviously you can't like kind of get that before that we saw the pit and,

[00:04:13] and, and, you know, something like just like heaven and stuff like that. Yeah, it's good music.

[00:04:18] A lot of good memories there for me. I remember that when that stuff was

[00:04:22] freshly cut vinyl back in the day, dude. I mean, it's still, I mean, they call it

[00:04:29] classical now, which is, which is insane. But you still get to get the butterflies when you hear,

[00:04:36] you know, stuff like that, you know, the cure, Duran Duran always stuff. You can't help but sing

[00:04:42] along with it. It's good music. I don't know about any of the current music if it's good

[00:04:47] music and if it's sing along music. I think I grew up. I think I grew up in a period of

[00:04:53] time in America where some of the best music ever was being generated.

[00:04:58] And not just, you know, pop, but, you know, in terms of metal, you know, rock, classic rock,

[00:05:06] stuff like that. We 80s and 90s were that era of where the talent was absolutely insane.

[00:05:12] Well, I'm talking the 60s and the 70s. I'm a couple, I'm a couple decades older than you.

[00:05:17] Yeah. So what am I? How old are you? I am 61.

[00:05:25] I thought you said you were like 50 something the last time, 51.

[00:05:28] Yeah. Well, I've been doing this so long now. I started how many years have I been doing this?

[00:05:32] I started before you on this. This is like my 324th show on Inside the Line. I don't know where

[00:05:38] you were for the first 200. Damn, son. All right. Well, I'm sorry.

[00:05:43] I was doing this podcast back when it was great. Well, you look very well for 61. Holy shit.

[00:05:50] It stopped hitting on me and I want to hear what was that, butts to nuts. Let's, you know, okay.

[00:05:54] No, no, no, no. But we'll go beyond that. But I think you're not recording, are you?

[00:05:59] 100%. I got to speak to my publicist. This is wrong.

[00:06:03] What is it? What do we need? No holds bar. Nope. Nothing. So apparently, you know, we have,

[00:06:09] you know, we talked like a week or two back about the great solar eclipse that happened

[00:06:13] much as like a month ago, but it's still pictures. We're going up and we're all kind of getting sick

[00:06:18] and tired of it. So now we have a geomagnetic storm that takes the East Coast by like

[00:06:25] insane amounts. Everybody's posting about it. Blah, blah, blah. That's I say blah,

[00:06:30] blah, blah because I didn't get crap here. No cloud coverage. Nothing. I had,

[00:06:36] I have my Fitbit and it buzzes every, I had it set to every hour to where I could go outside

[00:06:42] and check it. I had cloud coverage every hour. Well, I think it was on the half hour. So you

[00:06:47] were off by 30 minutes. Not at all. This is, yeah, I didn't see anything. I was in Connecticut,

[00:06:53] Friday, Saturday, Sunday tied up with graduation activities. So I wasn't going outside to look

[00:07:02] for the geomagnetic storm, but I saw these posts on Instagram and they were off the hook. Crazy stuff.

[00:07:12] Yeah. I was insanely jealous. Yeah. I think it beats the eclipse, frankly. You see it around here.

[00:07:21] Is that, is that one of your bucket list kind of go to like, you know, Alaska or

[00:07:25] Iceland or Greenland to see one of those? I finished my bucket list decades ago. I'm in

[00:07:30] the bonus round now and the bonus round is just, you know, one day at a time do whatever I want.

[00:07:37] I've accomplished all my life goals so I'm ready to die.

[00:07:42] Impressive. I'm going to hike up the forbidden side of double top

[00:07:46] and surrender myself to the gold family and be sacrificed, be sacrificed at the site of the

[00:07:52] former canister. Yeah. I once again, I screw this up, then go with the intro. Welcome to

[00:07:58] episode 124, Inside the Line of Catskill Mountains podcast. Today, Tat and I talk about

[00:08:03] Graham and Double Top, what happened, what went wrong, what we could have done. So it's definitely

[00:08:10] a big discussion that I got to admit that was kind of tossed under the table and has been

[00:08:14] talked about in a long time. So Tat and I are going to go into deep about this because we

[00:08:20] kind of both have inside information about this topic and we both were affected by Graham and Double

[00:08:29] Top because they were both unique mountains. So, 124, episode 124. I didn't even say episode

[00:08:34] we were at last episode. So 123, it sucks. Yeah, you're losing it. You're no longer at the

[00:08:39] top of your game. So, but yeah, Geo Magnetstorm. Yeah, it's cool stuff. It was amazing to

[00:08:46] see some people taking pictures over the Shokin Reservoir. My friend Mo, you know,

[00:08:52] Mo Lamiura that works at Camp Catskill, taking some beautiful stunning photos and I'm,

[00:08:58] we're both probably an hour and a half away from where he was and we got nothing. So,

[00:09:04] I don't know. It's, and you know, and I've tried, there was one time I did try back in,

[00:09:10] oh God, 2016. I went as far north as I could up to an airport in Oniata away from all the lights

[00:09:19] and with my camera with a 15 second exposure and what is it called? ISU. I haven't done this

[00:09:27] in a long time. ISO. The ISO was set at like 15,000. And yeah, I got some of the Northern

[00:09:38] lights, but nothing that you could see with a naked ISO. Yeah, I'm just checking this on Google.

[00:09:43] They say display could be visible once again in New York except, oh, except in Oniata where it's

[00:09:51] blacked out for political reasons. Not that political. I guess you won't get it again.

[00:09:59] Listen, we have something called up here called the bubble and I think it has to do with

[00:10:05] the way our mountains are shaped and every storm goes around us. It's because the mountains are shaped

[00:10:11] like Franklin three miles to the south gets massive amounts, Delhi eight miles to the south gets massive

[00:10:19] amounts, New Berlin eight miles to the north gets massive amounts. Oniata gets absolutely nothing.

[00:10:26] So, you know, we had actually the national other was it a weather channel was up here

[00:10:33] for a major storm. We had 36 inches predicted and they were up here. We got six.

[00:10:44] It's horrible. Yeah, well, I also hear you guys didn't have good pizza. So that's another story.

[00:10:49] I mean the greatest pizza around. Challenge me. Challenge me. I did. I did. We're gonna do

[00:10:56] an episode at Sal's up in Oniata live eating slices and drinking cold draft beer. You know what? Come

[00:11:03] one. Come come on. Come all tell your hiking stories and but don't come for the pizza. Come for

[00:11:09] the beer. So I got an idea. So June 8th, we have the Catskill Outdoor Expo down to the Catskill

[00:11:18] Center. It's free open to visitors and stuff like that. Ted and I are going to be down

[00:11:23] there. Hopefully, Tab will join me. I'll be down there. So I'm going to bring some Sal's pizza

[00:11:29] down there. It might not be fresh. I could ask for it because he's my friend. I went to school with

[00:11:35] him and I'm gonna we're gonna do probably a live broadcast. I'm gonna do a live

[00:11:42] recording of people tasting. Sal's pizza. Well, the true measure of a slice of pizza

[00:11:51] is how it tastes the next morning right out of the refrigerator. Okay, it's not hot out of the box.

[00:11:57] It's not served at the pizzeria, you know off the platter. It's how it tastes when you grab it

[00:12:03] out of the fridge the next morning. Maybe a little salt, a little pepper, reheated but not

[00:12:11] microwave. Never microwave it. Right? Oh, no, you reheat it through the oven. You have to.

[00:12:17] Do you microwave yours? Oh my God. Yeah, that's real. That's like a crime. I think that's like a

[00:12:24] Class A felony. You could do life for that. I would never admit microwaving pizza. Especially the

[00:12:29] New Yorker. Yeah, that's like leaving garbage in the woods. Okay. That's like leaving Adirondack

[00:12:37] chairs at the top of slide mountain. That's just wrong. That's right. You can be arrested.

[00:12:42] Even if it's Sal's crappy pizza, you could do time for that. No offense, Sal. I don't know you.

[00:12:48] I shouldn't have been picking on you. So it's called Sal's pizza ria because

[00:12:53] it used to be a guy who owned it named Sal's my friend. Really? I never would have figured

[00:12:57] that out, Stash. I'm glad you've clarified where the origin because I thought it was like maybe

[00:13:02] Sally was short for Sal or you know, used to own it. All right. So I will bring a,

[00:13:12] I guess it's going to be. You bring Sal's pizza and I'm going to bring mystery pizza

[00:13:20] which hasn't been microwaved and we're going to have a blind taste testing competition.

[00:13:25] It's going to be Sal's pizza, the mystery pizza and the new Cliff bar pizza flavored bar. Yeah.

[00:13:35] And we'll see who can pick the best of the three sold by R. E. I.

[00:13:42] No, I think it's sold by Camp Moore down in New Jersey.

[00:13:48] So only in New Jersey are they selling that brand of Cliff bar.

[00:13:52] Yeah. So, you know, stinking that we're talking about like food and such like that. So I came upon

[00:13:59] this article that said through hiking can cause body dysmorphia. So crazy. I wouldn't say crazy

[00:14:08] article, but I kind of, I kind of agree with it. I'm not a through hiker, but I can see it

[00:14:14] in this person's eyes. So the one funny thing that it's called, it's on the truck. I'll have it

[00:14:22] on there are links and show notes. Oh, hold on. Give me a sec. She doesn't even name her.

[00:14:27] She doesn't even give her name. Well, I think it's down at the bottom of the article where it's

[00:14:31] always about that. That's a great ridiculous. We live in a society now where people are

[00:14:37] more and more open in terms of expressing their feelings, their positions, their points of view.

[00:14:46] So she could her name is Peg leg. That's her, her trail name. So she did the international

[00:14:53] Appalachian Trail, New Brunswick, Quebec. She also did the PCT and Bama to Baxter. So she went

[00:15:02] from Alabama to Baxter, of course. So they did the Appalachian Trail, East Coast Trail, which was

[00:15:07] Key West and Newfoundland. So she's gone the distance and she says basically many through hikers

[00:15:14] say that their trail lives has changed forever. They're basically the time on the trail has

[00:15:20] changed her life forever. And she did her journey back in 2017 and it did change her because

[00:15:27] in many ways the way she eats on the trail contributes to the way that it changed her in

[00:15:34] her normal life because on the trail, at any time she would encounter a place that could give her

[00:15:41] a massive amount of food, a massive amount of calories to to punish that calories you

[00:15:48] burn off when you're going up these massive peaks or just these areas like 20 miles

[00:15:56] she would go all out and replenish these three to 4000 calories that she burned off during the day.

[00:16:04] And it really changed her because when the time she was hiking, you would have to try to

[00:16:14] to kind of balance your calories per calories burned. And you can't really do that because

[00:16:19] it's tough when you're out in the absolute middle of nowhere and you try to use these

[00:16:24] you know freeze dried meals that might have maybe 2000 calories per like two people.

[00:16:33] And then all of a sudden, you're burning off a little bit more than you can expect.

[00:16:37] But then at these places with these through hikes you could come into

[00:16:42] a town or something like that and you can eat four or five slices of pizza or

[00:16:47] you know five or six garlic knobs. And then all of a sudden you were kind of replenished.

[00:16:53] And that was also kind of like your I would say like guns and roses, your appetite for

[00:16:59] destruction. You would crave that you would get that you get sick and tired of all these

[00:17:03] freeze dried meals. You get sick and tired of you know sodas, you know snacks stuff like that.

[00:17:10] All of a sudden you would crave these massive meals that you get to have burgers, fries

[00:17:16] stuff like that. So she's saying that basically once you're out on the trails for these 2000 mile

[00:17:23] hikes that when you get back changing back to normal eating habits of you know eggs in the morning

[00:17:30] you know stuff like that cannot be matched and that you're kind of stuck with this

[00:17:38] crazy appetite that you're going to go out and have bar food all the time,

[00:17:43] that you want to have something that's going to give you amazing amounts of calories,

[00:17:47] even though you still aren't burning those calories on the trail like you once were when you did these

[00:17:52] through hikes. You know I read this and you know what I can believe that that's something that I

[00:17:59] kind of wish you know I could burn off 3000, 4000 calories a day and then go out and eat

[00:18:04] some massive amounts of amazing food. So I don't know what do you think that?

[00:18:09] Well I get it, you're out there. You don't have the luxury of being as conscious about what you eat,

[00:18:17] making you know the best healthy food choices, you're just eating what you have and what you can get

[00:18:24] your hands on and I'm sure there's times where you can't get what you want so you just eat

[00:18:30] what you can get and then when you're done hiking all those days and you're around all

[00:18:37] that food, yeah you might dinge a little bit. So I can understand that it's sad and

[00:18:46] hope she bounces back, hope she curbs her appetite. Yeah and it's you know and if the

[00:18:53] we'll include this article in this but what she's basically saying is that you know on the trail

[00:18:59] you can lose a considerable amount of weight and try to gain that back when you're in the

[00:19:03] towns you know seeing that amazing food that you have but you know it's tough, it's very tough.

[00:19:11] Yeah she has a photo in the article of these deep fried deviled eggs that she got along the way

[00:19:18] and I must say that I can't imagine being hungry enough to eat a deep fried devil's egg.

[00:19:27] Thank you. All right at least we agree on something. I would take a full freaking pie of pizza over that.

[00:19:36] Obviously that's like a no-brainer. I don't know and that was in you know I look at that

[00:19:40] and that was in Damascus so that was yeah that was in the center of the through hike of your

[00:19:48] Appalachian Trail hike so wow so just reading some of this is just saying you know basically

[00:19:57] if you do need help with this reach out to her I'll post the link and stuff. I highly doubt

[00:20:04] many people who through like the Appalachian Trail and the PCT listen to this. Those are

[00:20:09] I mean Mo does you know my friend Henry does but a lot of people that need help

[00:20:15] listen to this podcast so if you do let me know. So another part that's going on right now is

[00:20:25] today earlier today later on last night I got the news that the search for a missing Massachusetts

[00:20:31] man concludes in New Hampshire so the body of William Donovan I hike who had been missing since

[00:20:38] April 16th so that was almost over a month ago was located by searchers in the dry river today

[00:20:45] around 10 30 a.m. so this was the last night or yesterday. Searchers were directed to his

[00:20:52] new search area by gear and jacket believe deeply uh belonged to Donovan that was found over the week

[00:20:58] but in the river by hikers and reported by fishing game this evidence helped focus on

[00:21:04] their search and his body was ultimately located approximately 400 feet upstream from the jacket

[00:21:11] so the initial search team consisted of conservation officers drone rescue teams from

[00:21:16] the Atterskoggan Valley search and rescue the New England canine upper valley wilderness response

[00:21:22] team that was the initial area but the body was located just 2.5 miles off of route 302 and the

[00:21:29] searchers worked hours to extircite the body from the beneath the large boulder so once again

[00:21:35] this is a very in kind of insane moment of where you picture this person's body being

[00:21:43] beneath the large boulder and they're trying to pry it out but at the time freezing cold water

[00:21:49] temperatures and the lack of tools to remove the body from the area they needed definitely

[00:21:54] additional resources so a lot of people came in together twin mountain fire department uh the

[00:22:00] Atterskoggan Valley search and rescue team the pemy closet search and rescue team

[00:22:05] and the mountain rescue services all responded to assist this and volunteers hike

[00:22:11] in the extra tools for over 2.5 miles and assisted in carrying the body back out

[00:22:18] sorry once again shit teams arrived at 302 uh route 302 with the body at 6 40 p.m so

[00:22:26] it is not known what brought that up into the tribe river on this and it is unknown how he

[00:22:31] entered the water but appears he was likely somehow forced off the ridge uh likely due to

[00:22:36] weather uh between mountain row and how we're during this hike and ended up in the very difficult

[00:22:42] insane terrain of the driver who won this so they're doing an autopsy and just another crazy

[00:22:51] incident in the white mountain national forest that we see happen at least time of year just

[00:22:59] yeah looks like the guy went out solo um he doesn't say what if any

[00:23:04] uh personal messaging or satellite device if any he had but apparently if he had one he

[00:23:12] didn't have the opportunity to activate it and was found in a stream beneath a large boulder

[00:23:23] and and you dad you know from from hiking with dandy and you know hiking doing

[00:23:30] bush wax and stuff up during the just it can turn into a disaster pretty fast with oh yeah i um

[00:23:38] i don't think in the cat skills we would be hiking in a stream that would have

[00:23:45] the water velocity that this this person encountered because it's you know typically

[00:23:51] it's short lived in the cat skills and you're not hiking in those conditions but

[00:23:57] i've been up when i was much younger i've been up in the adirondacks when

[00:24:02] you would run into that and those streams would be raging and dangerous yep and the further up

[00:24:11] the smaller we get the the kind of more turret you would get and uh it would

[00:24:17] and eat like a little step in there you you would think ah it's not that bad and all

[00:24:21] of a sudden boom it would sweep you up and you never know exactly and i you know it's it's very

[00:24:30] at these times you kind of wonder what happened what was he thinking what did he run into what

[00:24:36] problems you know but this has been a good old a month that they've been searching for him

[00:24:43] and you know being a search and rescue volunteer you know we we first start off with the trails

[00:24:51] and you you scour the trails you try to see what you can can't find anything come back down

[00:24:57] you kind of scour the trails once again and look for kind of like last point seen last point known

[00:25:04] and then it becomes a grid search and grid searches are not easy especially with the you

[00:25:08] know off trail and especially within the white mountains because all of a sudden there are dense

[00:25:14] forest and you got to be so close to find something yeah well according to the article

[00:25:20] it sounds like folks hiking the river over the weekend found his jacket alerted fish in game

[00:25:30] which is their ranger service and the fellow's body was found about 400 feet upstream from this

[00:25:38] jacket so the jacket presumably had washed downstream found by some hikers called it in

[00:25:45] and that that narrowed down the search area it's a it's a very difficult process and

[00:25:54] you know once again thank you to the volunteer search and rescue teams up to there thank you

[00:25:59] to the fishing game that dedicated a month of this to help find the body

[00:26:05] and it's very difficult time and you know I gotta admit the white mountains in the past

[00:26:11] couple years have been taken a beating with the search and rescue and you know I try to

[00:26:17] I try to wonder you know what's what's going through these people lines when they want to

[00:26:23] pursue these mountains in these difficult situations and uh you know I don't try to do this

[00:26:30] I don't I don't want to do this because I don't want that situation of where I can't hike the

[00:26:34] mountains again yeah well I I think you I think you've mentioned before how you like extreme

[00:26:39] winter conditions for hiking so wind it sounds like wind as well you're you're drawn into it

[00:26:46] for the wind and the wind blows in the storm and the next thing you know it's white out conditions

[00:26:51] and you know you you're getting cold getting disorientated sounds like a search and rescue

[00:27:00] it's about to happen people people want adventure people are looking you know for

[00:27:06] something to take the ordinary out of their everyday experience and make it extraordinary

[00:27:10] and it's one of the reasons you're drawn to the woods exactly you know and uh tad this is something

[00:27:17] I wanted to bring up that wasn't on the agenda so I recently yeah so I recently saw a an

[00:27:25] Instagram post from a person who was up at the the Mount Everest base camp and she was taken

[00:27:33] like a video of her area and amazing showing how amazing whether it is and I was absolutely

[00:27:40] disgusted by what was up there tents everywhere deflated tents you know garbage everywhere

[00:27:49] and it was just absolutely disgusting and you know this this article 20 I was thinking about that

[00:27:56] sorry because on health of course the article's gone wow of course I opened it up in the

[00:28:03] freaking browser so yeah so just uh the article I read was will there be drama on Mount Everest this

[00:28:11] year there definitely will but we all know that Mount Everest is an absolute crazy kind of place

[00:28:20] with its adventurers want to go up there people want to go up there just to summit them out and

[00:28:26] just to check it off their list and stuff like that hundreds thousands of people do it

[00:28:32] per year it's uh it's it's absolutely insane and this one time I like I came across a

[00:28:42] uh video of someone on Instagram just showing like doing a kind of like a pair or I'm a three

[00:28:48] six tree of the area and then all you see is on the ground just these kind of deflated

[00:28:55] tents sitting there and then tents up and then deflated tents and then tents up and then deflated

[00:29:00] it almost looked like you know these balloons have floated in the area and deflated and it's just

[00:29:06] it's very disturbing and it's just it's absolutely disturbing to to talk about this to read about

[00:29:14] this to see what people feel about this that they just want to do it just to cross it off their list

[00:29:19] they have no absolute feeling of what what it is about yeah stash is slowly sliding into some

[00:29:29] type of respiratory distress um I think his wife is calling 911 not at all looks like somebody's uh

[00:29:38] intubating him he's on the floor some search and rescue folks have have stormed into the studio

[00:29:44] where he was recording stash waves them away as he sips what I think is a rumen rumen coke

[00:29:52] and he's back to the microphone like oh yeah 100% so yeah so what do you I mean do you think this

[00:29:59] this is stuff just stop on that versus ever gonna die down oh I know I mean it's gonna get more

[00:30:06] and more used people are going to keep pushing the envelope there's going to be more people there

[00:30:10] they're going to come up with more ways to convey people there hopefully there's some level of control

[00:30:18] implemented to minimize the the trash to minimize the disturbances but the attraction is just going

[00:30:28] to keep drawing people in and operators are going to try to profit off of it maybe some of

[00:30:35] them will be more scrupulous than others and you know try to police and preserve the area more but

[00:30:42] it's a shame I have heard I hiked with a guy a few years back um who hiked into base camp

[00:30:50] I think he was that it was an eight or nine day hike in and he just described it as a fantastic

[00:30:54] experience he got the base camp he hiked one or two of the smaller mountains around Everest

[00:31:02] but not Everest itself and he described it as you know being a really worthwhile and enjoyable

[00:31:08] experience was something I would enjoy doing maybe with one of my daughters or somebody who appreciates

[00:31:16] pizza other than Sal's pizza of course but outrageous I'm gonna bring that up stop bringing that

[00:31:24] right I'm gonna scratch it I'm scratching right off the list here Sal's pizza

[00:31:30] there you'll get I'm done I'm done beating up on Sal except for on on June 8 when we have the

[00:31:36] pizza shootoff yes definitely so yeah once again you just kind of you're curious about what's

[00:31:44] going to happen on Everest you know there's a whole different like policing policy stuff like

[00:31:53] that are they gonna take over what it is or they just gonna keep taking on the cash flow and

[00:31:58] and realizing that this is a money grab kind of situation so once again I'll have to I'll have to

[00:32:04] post the link that that I saw because it was very disturbing it's just it just sucks it looks like

[00:32:12] a bunch of you know mylar balloons are over the place and they're never gonna be cleaned up on

[00:32:18] a freaking glacier yeah I think the last time I was out hiking which was decades ago it seems we

[00:32:24] found two or three mylar bones that day unbelievable right yeah just in the Catskills unbelievable

[00:32:33] just in the Catskills so it's crazy so thank you for the small talk Ted uh shooting the shit

[00:32:41] I'm trying I'm trying I'm shooting the shit and you're shooting the germs over there

[00:32:45] shooting the germs out of here so thank you to the monthly supporter is Darren Vicki John Betsy

[00:32:51] Denise Vanessa Joseph Jim Michael David Chris and Vanessa thank you guys so much for supporting

[00:32:57] the show I'm glad you guys believe in the show and your support in the show really appreciate it

[00:33:01] also check out outdoor chronicles photography Molly from outdoor chronicles photography

[00:33:06] specializes in adventure alope and adventure couple photography in the Catskills Adirondack

[00:33:12] and the White Mountains she is an officiate for getting married and a licensed guide

[00:33:16] but she is also a story maker Molly wants to give you photos she'll give me memories that will

[00:33:20] last forever do not hesitate to get hold of Molly on all platforms so also have you ever wanted

[00:33:26] to learn about more hiking or backpacking or even just burst up on some of your old skills in the

[00:33:31] backcountry check out Trevon project a hiking and backpacking school Scott and Joe from the

[00:33:37] New Jersey search and rescue team have amazing backgrounds and will disperse aid will

[00:33:41] disperse responder and the mountain rescue association and they are here for you to learn

[00:33:45] all the new scouts skills of hiking and backpacking they teach anything from map and compass

[00:33:51] and first aid and many other skills that you could help you and others while in the truck check

[00:33:56] them out and our old social media platforms so coffees tag uh you know what Ted I'm gonna

[00:34:07] go with this one on this one all right this is I'm stepping up this is my big time

[00:34:12] definitely so as we said before uh tag the podcast when you post one of your hikes on

[00:34:19] instagram or elsewhere on social media platforms and we'll chat about it on the show and maybe

[00:34:25] invite you on to talk about hiking and other things outdoors damn straight and uh you know

[00:34:33] what I love talking about other people's hikes because you know who knows what they've done

[00:34:38] you know Danny and mischievous uh mighty mischievous Danny might have done something crazy

[00:34:44] and then you got that that guy Brian hikes all day who uh wants to find dead bodies in the

[00:34:49] Catskills so you never know so Brian hikes all day awesome so Ted looks like you're having a

[00:34:56] good old coffee from uh you're yeti yeah same same old same old you know I've been asked

[00:35:02] how the hell can you drink caffeine this late in the day uh as at my age drugs and chemicals

[00:35:10] have absolutely no effect on my body nothing whatsoever I'm like a I'm like a petrified human

[00:35:18] and I just I pour whatever fluid it is and it does nothing for me about like CBD have you

[00:35:26] never thought about doing like that CBD dcb abc x yz I do it all nothing nothing works on me

[00:35:35] not even like like weed or something like that like that won't help you out I I don't know what

[00:35:40] you mean by weed uh I don't know what I I burp the weeds in the the lawn I have a weed eater

[00:35:48] and I spray the weed and feed on the yard outrageous activities with weed I'm not familiar

[00:35:56] with at this time talking about that that taking away the pollinator stuff man I thought you were

[00:36:00] you're about that you're all about the spartan the bees and stuff yeah I do I I have a whole

[00:36:05] area of the yard that I don't treat I don't do anything to but around the house around the pool

[00:36:11] I like that country club look you know after a long day of hiking in the Catskills bushwhacking

[00:36:16] dealing with nettles prickers uh beach webs you name it I like to come home get out of my

[00:36:23] Jeep I go for that spot in the yard I just yard I just lie down I roll around in the grass I feel

[00:36:29] like a civilized human all over again okay understandable understandable I got that backyard

[00:36:34] that's like that too we're converting the front yard into a hopeful uh lake how do you say yeah

[00:36:41] you want to be that neighbor that everyone talks about it's just gonna be a state of nature

[00:36:46] right you're gonna have critters out there is that it I'm sorry to say they're gonna

[00:36:51] can hate it yeah you're gonna you're gonna drive down land values in the neighborhood I heard you're

[00:36:57] gonna put like a what is it a a mosh pit out front is that one of the things you're doing 100%

[00:37:03] they hear that at five o'clock in the morning when I go to work they hear my double days

[00:37:08] but buts and nuts that's what we're gonna call you exactly buts and nuts house yeah so exactly

[00:37:16] so once again uh you know I had good old rum and coke as always I had very limited time to get here so

[00:37:26] you know as I said to you the freaking zoom lake an hour before the show absolutely ridiculous

[00:37:32] so previous hikes do you have anything for us dad no I mean this is my I told you last week I didn't

[00:37:39] hike uh didn't hike this weekend I was out in Connecticut for my daughter's graduation was a

[00:37:47] fun family event filled weekend and I will be out hopefully this Saturday doing a hike that I've

[00:37:57] probably put off now for at least six weeks it seems but if I if I do it stay tuned it's

[00:38:07] not necessarily that's going to be a long hike but it's going to be a fun hike

[00:38:11] so you give us any uh kind of like some secrets like no because I don't want to run into anybody

[00:38:17] on the hike I want to you know I'm gonna go through some of my kudishes old growth areas um

[00:38:24] I'm gonna hit hopefully an old trail and knock off some of the 100 high guests along the way

[00:38:33] nice just kind of little something a little avant garde I'm gonna have to start off with the little

[00:38:40] I think it's like a 12 mile uh bicycle hustle down 23a that's a clue if you will I'm not gonna

[00:38:51] you can guess all you want I'm not gonna admit anything 23a at 12 mile Jesus yeah there and back

[00:39:00] well down down to the start point but you know I mean you have to remember there's

[00:39:04] you know when you the bike ride is kind of like a u-shape thing so the hike is more of I'm not

[00:39:11] gonna say the hike is a total straight line but I'm gonna say the interesting part of the hike

[00:39:15] is definitely going to be the climb up to the ridge uh it looks like I'm gonna be going through

[00:39:19] either a spruce or hemlock forest up a drainage then uh hitting some ledges cliff action whatever

[00:39:29] wow up over a few you know little knobs and then uh into some familiar territory for all of our

[00:39:36] Catskill hiking friends that I'm gonna bang a left and head down to the jeep along what I assume

[00:39:43] is an old logging road that shows up on the map I am very curious it's a big question mark

[00:39:51] in my head right now yeah wow Saturday off tag along I'll bring you along I'll slow down the

[00:39:57] pace I'll slow it down to 2.8 miles an hour for you I'll back it off did I should I show you how

[00:40:04] fast I was doing that one driver cruise that was pretty quick oh yeah what was your like 2.6 2.6

[00:40:11] it was like 2.6 yeah that's pretty good for a trail hike I gotta admit it was I gotta admit

[00:40:17] it's pretty good compared to some other people yeah I'll take on that was wait a minute that was

[00:40:22] that was talking uh with a guy that was on the trail so I was talking with him and I talked

[00:40:26] with him and I checked out what was my kudish you were doing like 2.6 with my kudish by your side

[00:40:32] god that would be amazing he smoked you right he did he was carrying all his bog equipment up and

[00:40:37] you just got like your extra light pack and a rum and coke and and iron mic is just

[00:40:43] got the hammer down wouldn't that be the dream right there right amazing so maybe we'll see him

[00:40:50] on June 8th I hope so I hope he recognizes me because I've been with him several times but

[00:40:57] who knows so uh previously you know I had the intentions today to go up to Gilboa

[00:41:07] and hike around the upper reservoir at the intentions but I had somebody that

[00:41:14] that to divert me from my my my goal I would say so instead of going up to Gilboa we went

[00:41:25] to Cooperstown and I did some disc golfing up in the woods at Oba Gang so as there's really

[00:41:32] if you ever like disc golfing is actually I gotta admit very fun and very

[00:41:38] like orientated with with kind of hiking because most of these disc golf places are for free

[00:41:44] are built by the state and they're in state forest so it's really crazy I can't believe

[00:41:51] that there's only one place that you have to pay for disc golfing in New York state and that's

[00:41:58] freaking right down the street from me oh yeah at a a stoner well if you want another

[00:42:03] place come out over to my house with your your frisbee and I'll take 20 bucks for you to throw

[00:42:08] your frisbee around in my yard anytime you want do you have to serve you I'll serve you some hot

[00:42:13] pizza out of the microwave and a rum and coke for 20 I'll do that for you do you have like

[00:42:20] disc golf like like uh like baskets and stuff or no no okay and now I'll put them up I'll

[00:42:26] do it for you I want I'm gonna I want to do an interesting activity or something on the

[00:42:31] property I got a little land here something down by the river you should maybe that's it

[00:42:36] maybe disc golf is the way to go people love it it's an end it's a phenomenal force like sport

[00:42:42] somewhat you know you have to you have to kind of get some at least some decent disc into it

[00:42:48] it's not just frisbee because those frisbees will fly right back to you so uh it's it's fun

[00:42:54] and you know you go up a week in Inamah gang we have like kind of like a flat area and then

[00:42:59] goes up in the woods curves back down into the flat area so you have your own disc yeah you

[00:43:05] have a set of discs or is just one disc so there's there's a set of discs there's a driver a mid-range

[00:43:13] and a putter and I have no clue what's the difference between all those yeah so do you

[00:43:18] know when to use which one or you just pick one at random and you're using the putter when

[00:43:22] you really need the long range one and yeah no clue yeah the putter is of course closer

[00:43:29] and then the long range like the distance but I throw the distance and it seriously

[00:43:34] it just floats in the air and then it just stops down it's just really it's really odd I got to

[00:43:40] learn the techniques of other stuff it sounds like you need to watch some youtube videos on

[00:43:46] how to be a disc golf pro some insane youtube videos of people throwing like 300

[00:43:53] sorry 300-foot freaking aces as my buddy Alex would call them the Ace of Chains

[00:44:00] instead of the Ace of Spades by Motherhead the Ace of Chains

[00:44:04] Alex has got a good sense of humor so the way I see this tilting is there's a thousand hiking

[00:44:12] podcasts so I'm going to take up disc golf you're into disc golf and we're going to start

[00:44:19] a disc golf podcast it's going to be the first one and we're going to be like social media

[00:44:26] disc golf influencers we're going to get sponsorships from the US Disc Golf Corporation

[00:44:34] and yeah we're going to be on ESPN you name it they got that going so it's going to be great

[00:44:42] all right let's move on yeah so uh yeah right too much disc golf crap so volunteer 3500 club

[00:44:49] trailer stewards had their calendar up for the summer so check them out definitely go for the

[00:44:55] trailer stewards it's a fun time I plan on doing it sometime soon so uh Catskull trail crew Monday

[00:45:00] May 20th and Tuesday May 21st at Little Pond not a bad hike at all you can go up and do some

[00:45:07] amazing trail work help out for two days I believe that's Memorial Day and then day after Memorial Day

[00:45:14] June 8th and June 9th Saturday and Sunday they're at the Manga Pond area awesome little area that

[00:45:21] that needs help from blowdown and some uh a certain little drainage is area so definitely

[00:45:26] check out Catskull trail crew and the 3500 club also check out Catskull Mountain Club they are

[00:45:32] doing stuff as well Catskull visitor center are doing volunteer operations uh Jolly Rovers trail crew

[00:45:39] definitely check them out they're all lakes in the in the show notes Bradley Mountain Fowler Tower

[00:45:44] is doing some show notes stickers you need stickers let me know or stop at Camp Catskull

[00:45:49] you can get some there or stop June 8th at the Catskull Center where we're going to be at so

[00:45:55] weather forecast for this weekend so since we're talking about Grand Mountain I decided

[00:46:01] to do the weather cork forecast for Grand Mountain for this weekend so not anybody can go there though

[00:46:07] I know right it's that's uh it's very similar to Balzen Lake and Big Adelaide I guess so

[00:46:15] so Friday looks like we're gonna be in the high mid mid to high 50s

[00:46:20] beautiful weather some clouds maybe a little light rain later on the day but when usually

[00:46:24] everybody's out so mid to high 50s win around 10 so bring your headnets there's

[00:46:30] definitely gonna be bugs all over the freaking place so Saturday we got some beautiful weather

[00:46:37] coming on a little bit of light rain in the afternoon but nothing too bad uh low 50s to high 50s

[00:46:44] wind around 10 to 15 miles an hour Sunday looks like it's a little bit kind of dustier

[00:46:52] oh with some cloudy some light rain and a little bit more cloudiness a little bit lower 48 degrees

[00:46:59] to 46 degrees 46 to 48 with a wind chill probably around 43 so once again prepare for rain uh at

[00:47:06] least a little bit because it doesn't look like it's going to be too bad out there for you guys to

[00:47:12] smash some peaks or something like that we don't call it crust and peaks because that's what Slasher

[00:47:17] called it we call it smash some peaks smash down that's ridiculous and we'll do okay

[00:47:25] a second so last set of sponsors so is it time for some new gear hiking the Catskills

[00:47:31] say no more camp Catskill and Tannersville has all your hiking needs footwear socks moisture

[00:47:35] working shirts freeze-dive meals Catskill merchandise and more they have all the essential

[00:47:40] for your hiking needs located in Tannersville and online check out camp Catskill also if you

[00:47:47] want free stickers stop here oh also if you're ready hit the chills make sure you

[00:47:52] take the scenic route scenic route guiding or who would help you with your goals big or small

[00:47:58] anything from like blown or marci or or slider the stewards check out scenic route guiding gear

[00:48:04] rentals on facebook and instagram for more information also if you mentioned the podcast

[00:48:09] you can get to get 10% off use the code mountain line so check out another summit a

[00:48:17] non-profit program that leads outdoor inventors and activities for veterans and first responders

[00:48:22] for free activities like walking or hiking or even backpacking or paddling trips check out another

[00:48:28] summit that are for more information and dates for future events so let's get on to the topic of the

[00:48:36] night gram and double top what happened so of course ever since basically i started this podcast

[00:48:48] this has been a big discussion and to be honest i've never pursued this topic of gram and double

[00:48:56] top what happened you know what could have been done what could have been prevented back and forth

[00:49:04] so the way the way you say that why don't you just tell us why didn't you pursue it before

[00:49:08] why didn't you bring up this topic on the podcast before tonight because i don't think you

[00:49:15] know it was with someone like you i don't think i had anybody as knowledgeable as you to talk about

[00:49:21] it with or to pursue it into this depth because i'm willing to spill a lot of stuff jesus i hope

[00:49:30] i don't disappoint you no i i don't think you will because you know it's it's a big it was a

[00:49:36] big topic you know this happened you know gram and double top where we'll talk about it in a

[00:49:41] little bit was closed in 2020 was it was 2020 or 2021 2021 so 2021 it was it was closed to the public

[00:49:51] and you know i see that as a weird thing as at that time i was second vice president of the

[00:49:57] 3500 club so there's a lot of of information to be thrown about about that time and you know

[00:50:04] what happened what could have been prevented what could have been done keep these mountains open

[00:50:09] so let's pause all that right now let's go into a background of gram and double top so

[00:50:16] gram and double top were owned by the ghouls now the ghouls are a very rich and wealthy

[00:50:24] family located from new york city uh and chad will go in a little bit of this

[00:50:30] a little bit later on but as most other peaks with the millbrook range in the millbrook

[00:50:35] ridge area there was very little human impact on gram from the most of recorded history

[00:50:41] definitely changed dramatically after construction of the turner hollow road in the late 19th century

[00:50:47] that connected seager with the end of the beaver kill road now that also opened tanneries area

[00:50:54] and and all of the areas of course arcville we got the beaver kill area that led down into

[00:50:59] that that stuch there was also one of the big practices down in that area was fishing a beaver

[00:51:07] kill area was trout fishing anglers could reach private fishing area clubs on the beaver kill

[00:51:12] had waters from the arcville station all from the delaware and allsterville railroad around 1890

[00:51:20] george ghoul built a furlough large lodge tract which included most of the mountain of gram

[00:51:27] and his father was a great enjoyer of fishing trout fishing at the lake and along the streams as well

[00:51:36] so tad big question who was george ghoul okay so george ghoul was the eldest son of jay ghoul

[00:51:48] jay was known as one of america's most infamous robber barons who died in 1892 with a fortune of

[00:51:59] 84 million dollars and had a reputation as one of the most despised men in america

[00:52:09] and that that reputation emanates out of the means and methods that jay used to acquire that wealth

[00:52:18] now this is surprising because jay grew up in the catskills near roxbury no different than

[00:52:24] john burrows and he uh jay initially took up the trade of surveying and making a noon mark

[00:52:34] on the sides of houses which would allow the occupants of the house to accurately keep time i

[00:52:40] read that jay would earn a dollar for marking that spot on the side of your house typically the southern

[00:52:49] side of the house that would mark where the sun passed over at high noon so you could keep track

[00:52:56] of time set your your clocks or your watches which were back then notoriously inaccurate yeah jay got

[00:53:05] into railroads in around 1857 when he purchased stock in the ruck ruttland and washington railroad

[00:53:13] and took control of the company he had a reputation as a lying corrupt and ruthless robber baron

[00:53:20] engaged in fraudulent investment schemes selling and listen closely selling fake stock certificates

[00:53:29] in various railroads and other companies and he would make speculative investments in railroad

[00:53:37] railroads and in gold so jay not a very cool person uh by age 29 jay was a millionaire and

[00:53:47] when he died as i said before in 1892 he had a reputed net worth of 84 million dollars which i

[00:53:54] looked up and in today's numbers that's worth about 2.9 billion his eldest son was george george

[00:54:04] was the fellow is stash noted in 1892 about well i guess two years before dad died george bought

[00:54:15] the furlough lodge and over time um accumulated the acreage that became the gold family holdings

[00:54:28] in the the gram and double top area but interesting or up note is that george gold

[00:54:36] who was then in charge of his father's fortune within a few years of his father's death

[00:54:43] fell uh lost about 40 percent of the family fortune nonetheless he uh he buys the lodge

[00:54:51] accumulates the property around gram and double top and that property remains owned by the

[00:54:57] gold family to this very day and you know as most of us know with this area is that they never

[00:55:06] really gave up that area it's one of the only places kind of like on the katskull 3500 peaks

[00:55:11] and the highest peaks uh very few even in the 100 highest peaks are privately owned let alone

[00:55:18] two of the 3500 peaks in this area so the ghouls had definitely a lot of hole on the katskull

[00:55:28] area because of the railroad their involvement in the railroad and and such like that you know

[00:55:33] i could i could remember reading a story about uh john burrows was down in new york city and he was

[00:55:42] walking i believe on wall street or some part of new york city and he walked in him and jay were

[00:55:47] friends they were friends in high school they went to high school together they grew up together

[00:55:52] but he walked past jay when they were down in the new york city area and jay had no clue who

[00:56:00] he was either that or what what uh john burrows thought that he thought that john wasn't good

[00:56:08] enough for him and he just walked right past him snubbed him yep and you know that's that's

[00:56:13] what i remember reading i forgot what book i read that in but it was just one of those

[00:56:19] times of where you know the rich are over here and you know i wouldn't say john burrows were

[00:56:25] poor john burrows was rich in his life and stuff but he wasn't the same as someone who lived in nyc

[00:56:32] at the time yeah well the burrows family goes on to make its own fortune in computers what and

[00:56:40] yeah they they came up with an adding machine uh the burrows adding machine i forget which

[00:56:47] member of the family but it was yeah quite a big deal oh yeah and they made you know millions

[00:56:54] with the um the office it was you know a mechanical machine but it was an automated machine

[00:57:01] that you know made certain office tasks uh easier i think one of them was like a check printing

[00:57:06] machine that they came up with which you know 100 and some years ago writing out a check

[00:57:13] in a secure way was a pretty big deal so the burrows family made you know

[00:57:20] a bucket of money doing that but one of the things we have when you have some free time

[00:57:25] google j gold and you're going to read all of these stories about how he was frankly a con man

[00:57:34] printing up fake stock certificates and he and a couple of his pals engaged in what would seem to be

[00:57:40] outrageous business practices to gain control of railroad companies and you amass this fortune

[00:57:46] and it's through his conduct that the family acquired

[00:57:51] Graham and double top and we now live with it today so stash why don't you continue with the story

[00:57:59] so dad do you know was he ever caught in trial or something like that no i don't think he

[00:58:05] you know he was ever charged um i mean it was you know some of the things he did were apparently

[00:58:11] widely known at the time and you know he was just uh not considered to be a trustworthy fellow but

[00:58:19] back then you know there was a lack of regulation a lack of control

[00:58:23] disseminating information was difficult and so he was able to uh manipulate stock prices

[00:58:30] manipulate the price of gold acquire controlling interests in companies you know as a corporate

[00:58:35] raider and take them over and then of course back then if you controlled a railroad you controlled

[00:58:44] the ability of farmers to get their products to market you controlled the ability of people to

[00:58:50] get from an a bigger metropolitan area to the rural countryside or as we learned a couple weeks

[00:58:57] ago to resort areas so you had a lot of influence and control and you could profit off of that take

[00:59:06] advantage of people so here's a fellow who by all accounts had little to no scruples and

[00:59:14] profited greatly by it that money largely remains in the hands of the family to this

[00:59:22] very day and they continue i mean they when you look at uh george gould and the properties he held

[00:59:27] he owned a lot of interesting properties uh around the east coast and uh most of them all of them

[00:59:36] with the exception of the furlough lodge had been sold off but they kept they kept ram and

[00:59:43] double top along with the the lodge you can through google earth or something like that

[00:59:48] you can zoom in and see this lodge property that was you know added on to and enlarged over time

[00:59:55] it's it's on a lake up there that the family has retreats i remember in the old days when you would

[01:00:01] call i think the fellow's name was bill shoal the caretaker yeah yeah right yeah you'd call bill

[01:00:07] to get permission to go on the property and you know during hunting season you'd have to be

[01:00:14] pretty particular in terms of telling them where you were going because whether it was gould family

[01:00:20] members themselves or their friends would would be up there hunting but they were never up hunting

[01:00:28] as far as i knew and that the saddle between ram and double top yeah it's uh you know once again

[01:00:36] your last name back in these days had a big importance on what you could do and and you know

[01:00:46] what you own and stuff like that you know the ghouls were big and they still somewhat are i would say

[01:00:52] in the catskills region but you know back in the days they the back in the early 1900s uh late

[01:00:59] 1800s were absolutely enormous with their last name so we and we can compare the gold family

[01:01:08] and their involvement jay gold's involvement in the railroad industry and his accumulation of wealth

[01:01:16] through those enterprises with the haramond family and um what was his alville alvaril

[01:01:24] haramond um acquired controlling interests and railroad companies made lots and lots of money

[01:01:32] many of you don't know as you drive up the new york state throughway from rockland county

[01:01:38] suffering north to haramond new york the reason that that stretches undeveloped

[01:01:46] through there is because it's owned by the haramond family has restrictive covenants on it

[01:01:52] by the haramond family that prevents it from development so when you go through

[01:01:56] that view shed that's undeveloped before you get to woodbury commons which is an outlet center

[01:02:03] that's overly developed that whole area um is undeveloped for the very reason that the haramond

[01:02:10] family uh protected it with restrictive covenants and then of course the haramond family gave away

[01:02:19] all of the land that became haramond state park which in sharp contrast to the gold family

[01:02:26] that did what's dash the oldest we can't like on their land just shout it out when you know

[01:02:32] the answer it's that easy right what are the what do the gold family do they cut us off they were

[01:02:38] yes yes but so nuts so yes there's nothing to do with it come on so you know we're talking about

[01:02:48] early 19th century 1800s you know we have rare roads uh going up to arcville we got railroads going

[01:02:55] you know up to maybe roxbury kinksan area going down to shandakin through up to or neanto stuff

[01:03:02] like that so there was one big creation in between graham and double top that was called the

[01:03:09] turno hollow road that was uh made in the upper slopes of graham and that went over to the seager

[01:03:17] area now do you call it seager or seger like i call it seger okay because a lot of i've heard people

[01:03:24] call it seger you have to call jim bouton or like kudish for the correct right but you

[01:03:29] can't jim bouton not bouton bouton bouton okay like so everybody knows he's the camp

[01:03:36] that's the time of night we can mispronounce things yeah so some of us that have hiked the mountains

[01:03:42] knows that their impact on the mountain is definitely still visible to elevations well

[01:03:47] above 30 3000 feet so uh if you go if you've hiked graham you basically know that that whole area

[01:03:57] was logged it is a very unique area one of the most unique i would say in the catskills and

[01:04:03] of course i i think dr kudish has also agreed with me it is one of the most unique areas

[01:04:08] in the catskills just because the trees are basically it's like somewhat of the on windom

[01:04:14] high peak they are only so amount high and they can only grow so amount high because it's been

[01:04:20] harvested uh and it's also because of the weather forecast of today yeah so when when you

[01:04:26] say they're they're like windom i think the trees on top of graham are more like what you find

[01:04:32] on the western part of the bear pen summit western sorry so facing uh towards vye no opposite from vye

[01:04:45] you've come up through past the hunting shack yeah yeah so and after you after you go through the first

[01:04:51] ski slope area and you continue to hike down towards the second and then that western viewpoint

[01:04:56] that most reminds me of the pygmy pygmy forest yeah it's on top of graham and if you ever have

[01:05:04] the opportunity to talk to my kudish about unique mountaintop forests and the catskills

[01:05:13] ask him about graham because he'll carry on about it to him it's a very special place a very

[01:05:19] unique place and most people who hiked to graham would come up the jeep trail the old relay station

[01:05:27] and hang out at that jeep trail turn around and go back down most of the folks didn't go

[01:05:33] past that relay station where didn't hike up graham uh from the south from the east

[01:05:41] hike up it from double top but but if you came up uh from the side of graham opposite

[01:05:47] of that relay tower and then you would hike through that pygmy forest and it was very unique i remember

[01:05:54] the first time i i hiked it i was just amazed at how short how sturdy how burly these trees were

[01:06:06] and again it's it's unlike anything that you really find elsewhere in the catskills yeah

[01:06:11] i agree i'd uh to piggyback on that graham was one of the mountains that took the most beating

[01:06:17] weather i would say of any mountains and the catskills a lot of people say you know bear pen

[01:06:22] bear pen caught a lot of stuff but it didn't take the winds that that graham would take graham

[01:06:28] i've never been up graham to where i haven't probably had sustained winds of less than 15 to

[01:06:34] 20 miles per hour and you know just imagine that stuff in the winter hounding on with the ice and

[01:06:42] stuff graham was kind of like the first mountain to get that weather and to show you well i i think

[01:06:48] you might know better than i but that and you have it in the notes is uh i think one of the

[01:06:52] reasons that helicopter went down was in the winter time during a snowstorm on graham yeah

[01:06:59] and you know if anybody's been up there and it was a relay station that was once built in the 1960s

[01:07:06] one acre clearing small little area relay station you know and then you know had might be

[01:07:13] old enough to understand what a relay station is but is that for radio or something like that

[01:07:18] what is that oh no it was for tv and so back in the day um and i'm not conversant in the science

[01:07:25] but uh the transmission of a tv signal um would bounce off the upper atmosphere and the problem is

[01:07:36] is that it would it would go up and then come down but want to go back up against who had a limited

[01:07:41] range and so what would be done is you would build these relay stations is a another broadcast

[01:07:49] point that would then reject the tv signal up and then it would come back down again so it was a way

[01:07:58] of relaying the tv signal further out and and back in the 50s the 60s early 70s before cable tv

[01:08:09] became popular getting a tv signal to your house and and you know remote areas was a

[01:08:15] difficult thing and i knew i grew up in a little valley in southwestern new york were literally

[01:08:21] in the summer we only had two tv channels that's all in the winter when the atmosphere was lower

[01:08:29] we would get the third signal would come in but most most of the time we just had the two

[01:08:36] and then eventually we my dad got a uh a satellite we had our own satellite in the backyard and

[01:08:42] then we had a whole bunch of channels but my my parents never had to out at their

[01:08:46] farmhouse they never had cable well and the thing about that you kind of wonder where

[01:08:52] the relay stations were located for that to be placed on gram it wasn't there it wasn't there

[01:08:57] for for long uh it said it was there for six years 63 to 69 uh and a technician and a pilot

[01:09:05] were uh on the summit for 24 hours after a helicopter crashed there for a maintenance trip

[01:09:10] during a heavy storm storm torrent 1963 once again uh you know 1960s we had crashes all over the place

[01:09:17] plane crashes uh and now a helicopter class luckily you know once again joe fairy my friend joe

[01:09:24] and i looked this up all the plane crash or all the the the helicopter crashed what's escorted

[01:09:30] off the mound during that that after that snowstorm through that one maintained road

[01:09:38] that was uh located between millbrook ridge uh balsam lake fire tower and to gram so once again

[01:09:45] that when you have the balsam lake fire tower that was occupied during those times for fires

[01:09:50] and then you have grandmountain was a relay station so both had roads going up to it now

[01:09:57] uh i'm not sure when it was closed but they before the official names of double topping

[01:10:03] gram they were named the schoolhouse mountains so east and west schoolhouse mountains if anybody's

[01:10:07] been up to the balsam lake area they would see that little house in between the diversion like the

[01:10:15] the crossway to lead to the end of seager and then going down to arkville that was once a

[01:10:20] schoolhouse just to let you know and that's why i've called it east and west schoolhouse

[01:10:25] mountains so let's let's go on to double top uh actually you know damn i didn't say uh

[01:10:33] how high gram was so gram was uh actually hold on yeah so so gram was uh 38152 feet and double top

[01:10:46] was 3871 or is i mean they're still they're still there they're just not on your your hiking radar

[01:10:55] yeah to speak so double top was the sixth highest peak in the catskills and considered two peaks

[01:11:01] once uh you know there's a uh a western and eastern part uh second second of two peaks luckily is on state

[01:11:10] land and you can approach it from many ways usually from the south it's most used but uh

[01:11:15] every place is a bushwhack it's all bushwhack there are no formal trails and uh gram is seventh

[01:11:20] high peak in the catskills uh it's six feet shorter than double top a little bit steeper though

[01:11:26] all on private property once again there's absolutely no way you can approach gram to get

[01:11:32] on the peak to summit that peak uh no second summit and that was the the case uh up until 2021

[01:11:42] well that wasn't the case up until 2021 so let's uh chat about that tad before 2021

[01:11:51] you had to always call and ask for permission to hike both of them out now you said uh what was his

[01:11:58] name bill yeah uh bill shoal i i seem to remember his last name was bill shoal that i i somewhat became

[01:12:04] a friend of his or just friendly with him calling him up all the time to go out there

[01:12:08] and hike i would chat a little bit with him on the phone he he seemed to be a somewhat elderly

[01:12:14] fellow he would get back to me you know you'd call him you'd leave a message later

[01:12:19] that day or the next day he'd get back to you chit chat a little bit and uh never never say no

[01:12:26] to you you always you always got permission to go there and like i said earlier sometimes

[01:12:33] you know when i would tell bill that this is where i would be on the property you know we'd

[01:12:38] have more of a detailed discussion during hunting season about where i'd be going because

[01:12:45] there would be people up there hunting in fact i have to say of the places i've hiked in the cat

[01:12:52] skills i've run into the most hunters between big indian and double top then i've run into

[01:13:02] anywhere else yeah and i remember one time i i ran into this um fellow hunting up there

[01:13:09] and the first thing that was striking about him is he looked like he was right out of the

[01:13:13] pages of like the ll bean or eddie bower catalog i mean he had had all of this real poshi

[01:13:21] swanky hunting clothes on and this this rifle that looked like you know it cost thousands of dollars

[01:13:29] and we had a long chat long for a hiker and a hunter was probably like 15 minutes and we

[01:13:38] we took a deep dive into some of the features around gram and on the way over from big indian to

[01:13:46] grap to double top um you know rock features roads you know he described to me the road network that's

[01:13:53] up there uh but it was very interesting how well he knew the terrain yeah and and also i mean again

[01:14:00] you know here's this guy he's you're pretty far out when you're when you're up there

[01:14:05] for a hunter and but apparently he had a um a walkie talkie and if he shot something he had

[01:14:11] a couple guys that were you know within a half a mile or so that would come over and help him haul

[01:14:17] back his kill nice uh that was you know when you asked permission to hike that was one of the

[01:14:27] the things they always ask you are you hunting do you know about the hunters uh it is it is

[01:14:32] hunting season of course you know bill you know i was i was just looking for for bill on my uh

[01:14:38] my phone to be like i i probably pretty i don't have him on my phone but i i used to call him all

[01:14:44] the time i uh but bill was a cool dude he'd always basically let you go up uh if if you knew

[01:14:50] what you were doing if you'd just say like you know yeah no i i never got to know even

[01:14:56] from the new fellow who would kind of quiz you more and uh one of the things you haven't

[01:15:00] mentioned but i remember is in 2020 when covid hit uh the initial policy of the gold family was

[01:15:11] we're going to let hikers continue to hike our property but you have to live in ulster county

[01:15:17] if you don't live in ulster county then we're going to tell you no we don't want you on our

[01:15:22] property so fortunately i live in ulster county and the new fellow would give me permission

[01:15:30] but he would give me a hard time when i would tell him i you know that i was coming in from

[01:15:34] big indian or i was bushwhacking up from this direction and heading over to you know graham

[01:15:39] through the call uh he'd have a hard time understanding what i was doing why somebody

[01:15:46] would want to do that but eventually i'd get him to yes and i'd be able to carry on with the

[01:15:52] whole yeah so i mean 99 of the time uh you would get permission i i don't think i've ever heard of

[01:15:59] somebody not getting permission to to go hike one of these mountains and of course as the time went

[01:16:06] on during the pandemic it got a little pretty crazy i gotta admit but you know going hiking i have

[01:16:15] hiked double top and graham from the the popular areas of course you go you go from millbrook ridge

[01:16:21] up through balsam lake and you can hike over to from there and you can hike the old carriage road

[01:16:26] that went up to the relay station or you can hike double top which i i'm there must have been a

[01:16:31] road going all the way up to double top because it basically leads up to the ledger so there

[01:16:35] must have been an old log in road uh and you know i always found those places to actually

[01:16:41] be well maintained yeah but that 100 i spoke of uh described to me how there is a main road

[01:16:51] that literally circles around double top no way yeah three circles around it going up

[01:16:59] doesn't go to the top of double top of course but goes you know up as high as you know where the

[01:17:07] the hardwood sort of end and i remember running into the traces of that road

[01:17:14] when i would explore over there yeah so that like you know i'm trying to figure out of what

[01:17:21] certain height that was but i could feel where those ledgers hit and where those

[01:17:27] those kind of first kind of thing but i never explored around the other side and

[01:17:31] yeah well the plane wreck is is kind of right at that elevation on the the eastern side where the

[01:17:40] hardwoods transition into uh the softwoods and that's so far up in there man that's really

[01:17:47] far up in there yeah yeah and that road definitely i've taken that road up into the vicinity of

[01:17:52] that plane wreck many times yeah and i've continued i've come over from big indian

[01:17:58] um to double top and then counterclockwise uh around just that whole like perimeter around it

[01:18:10] and walked around the whole thing and it's just was fascinating to do that yeah yeah so um and i gotta

[01:18:16] admit you know we'll talk of once again a little bit later about our experiences on there so

[01:18:21] during the pandemic time traffic in the catch goes not alone just grabbing double top got out

[01:18:27] of control uh every bushwhack they would see people on every just hike you would see people that

[01:18:34] wouldn't be the like shouldn't be on those hikes would be on those hikes for some reason

[01:18:40] just to get out and then all of a sudden you know word on the street that with the the

[01:18:45] ghouls were going to close down the mountains due to overuse and then all of a sudden you

[01:18:49] know we would see signs here and there that you must call for permission i mean this wasn't

[01:18:55] i don't think that was before that was kind of like word of mouth yeah well i so i think um

[01:19:01] you know it was kind of like one of these perfect storm situations where uh bill shoal retires

[01:19:09] you get you know and who knows when the last time bill was at the top of double top right you

[01:19:15] know could have been 10 years that he hadn't gone up there he had no reason to go up there

[01:19:20] and so you get this new caretaker who's all gung-ho to impress his employer so they go around

[01:19:27] they start putting up new posted signs and then uh there was a time in the summer late summer of

[01:19:37] 2020 when you would hike out of uh segar that there was like all of this um it was kind of

[01:19:46] like that emergency tape or that 911 tape remember that yeah that they would have it where the herd

[01:19:52] path went up double top and then there was a note on there about calling first and and part of it

[01:20:00] was you know you need to leave your phone number whoever made the phone call to get permission

[01:20:04] would have to sign in using their phone number into the book so they could verify that you

[01:20:10] called in so they they through the new caretaker they started to become more vigilant and then this

[01:20:18] is also at the same time that you had more people coming up to the Catskills wanting to finish their

[01:20:24] list and so they're going up uh double top and they're apparently not calling in

[01:20:31] and they're getting up there and presumably at first it wasn't easy to find the canister

[01:20:40] so there was you know I don't know if you remember but there was multiple not as bad as

[01:20:44] we used to see on Friday um but going up double top I remember if you went up the traditional

[01:20:50] herd path there was kind of a fork in the the herd path where you know people would branch

[01:20:58] off thinking the canister was over here and then some thought it was over there you know and

[01:21:03] there was I remember and I was one of my favorite hikes was to do um big Indian double top

[01:21:11] gram balsam lake right you could just do a nice big loop and I remember going up there and just

[01:21:19] seeing more and more traffic had passed through things are getting beaten down and so eventually

[01:21:27] they they shut it down and I remember um there was somebody posted on Instagram how

[01:21:32] they they qualified for their 3500 club patch in the middle of the night when the club delisted

[01:21:43] gram and double top right he still he still had those two mountains to do

[01:21:48] and was planning on doing them and the next thing he knows he's like he finds out that

[01:21:53] they've been taken off the list so you know at midnight on the day they were delisted

[01:22:00] he became a club member wow last person in his sleep in his sleep unbeknownst to him right last

[01:22:06] person to do it uh for the 3500 club on the list yeah so yeah so the 3500 club you know at the

[01:22:13] time I was with the 3500 club I was second vice president with the club and uh at this time you

[01:22:20] know I was a regular person coming off the streets just loving to hike and I joined the

[01:22:26] club and I had no clue about what was going on and such like that so I was I was 100% overwhelmed with

[01:22:35] this topic especially with the pandemic alone and so the the club was going back and forth with the

[01:22:41] ghouls like you know why should we do this can we do this what can we do to help uh the club

[01:22:49] of course is about conservation and preservation of the Catskills that's what they first started

[01:22:55] out to do in the 1960s with uh Bill and uh what was her name Everett

[01:23:03] yeah that's what they their their their policy was even though they wanted people to hike the peaks

[01:23:10] what were the reasons the ghouls gave for shutting down the mountains

[01:23:13] preservation reservation of the forest

[01:23:18] and you know the 3500 club went with it they they they were agreed with it but a lot of

[01:23:26] stuff came up about why we should keep these peaks open we can keep these peaks open so

[01:23:34] there's a certain uh a thing called right of the easement that came up with the club

[01:23:41] that came up with a bunch of other topics as well not just with the 3500 club a right of

[01:23:47] easement gives you grant you the permission to go up there because you have been going up there

[01:23:52] a certain amount of times right Tad can you explain that a little bit yeah so okay

[01:23:57] so when you talk about a right of easement a a right of easement would either be set forth in a

[01:24:06] document such as a declaration or grant giving you an easement we're giving a club

[01:24:14] or association or the general public I mean there's we see it all over in the Catskills where

[01:24:19] there are easements given to the DEC or the general public to walk over access via private lands

[01:24:31] and that's in a written document and I think what you're referring to is what we would call a

[01:24:35] prescriptive easement which is where the easement itself is not set forth in a writing or

[01:24:42] the writing itself is not sufficiently definite to convey the access or right of use that the person

[01:24:52] wants to enforce but the person's going to use that document or if they don't have a document all

[01:24:57] they're going to use the custom and practice of going over somebody's land over a certain

[01:25:03] period of time I think it's 10 years creates what the law caused a prescriptive easement

[01:25:10] so the the issue then would be whether or not there were the requisite facts and circumstances

[01:25:18] that would support a claim to a prescriptive easement and so why don't we without diving into

[01:25:25] what those requirements are because I think it could be debated whether or not they exist

[01:25:30] and I could talk about some of them but I'd want to know why is it the club didn't pursue

[01:25:38] a claim to a prescriptive easement? You know I want to also chime in and say that the club and the DEC

[01:25:48] were involved with this so it was kind of like back and forth because of course these two peaks

[01:25:51] were on the 3,500 club list and of course the DEC is involved with that as well. Yeah well the

[01:25:59] DEC goes out all the time and acquires easements like for example to access the eschopas to access

[01:26:07] the beaver kill. Yeah there are they go out and they acquire easements so anglers can park their car

[01:26:14] in a parking area walk through the defined easement area out to the waterway and in fish so that's

[01:26:23] one of the things the DEC does and I know other areas in the Catskills the DEC has these easements

[01:26:30] and do you know whether or not at any point in time the DEC offered to buy an easement from the

[01:26:37] Gold family? That is what I didn't know. So you don't know if that occurred and whether or not

[01:26:45] a price was discussed for it or not discussed? And that was a big question of course you have

[01:26:51] like you said there's been certain places that has private property you go from Barnum Road

[01:26:57] up to Thomas Cole and there's that one stretch of mile that is not DEC property but it's

[01:27:03] private property but they allowed people to to row up there to the trail and to the trail register

[01:27:11] really so that's that's one big question. Yeah so now you can't force somebody to sell you

[01:27:18] an easement on the one hand but we have heard recently in our talks about the

[01:27:23] Catskill Reservoirs in the Aqueduct that through the use of eminent domain

[01:27:29] the state or another municipality having jurisdiction can force somebody to sell their

[01:27:37] land can force somebody to sell an easement can force somebody to sell a right of access

[01:27:43] and do you know if the DEC ever considered that forcing the Gold family to convey an easement

[01:27:53] through the use of eminent domain? I don't think they did you know the one reason I don't think

[01:27:59] they did is because of the last name was the Golds. So one of the things I'm going to do I'm

[01:28:07] going to try to get to this I'm making a note now is I'll do a foil demand on the DEC

[01:28:12] right to see if there's any documents memos communications I love doing those foil demands

[01:28:19] freedom of information request to see if the DEC

[01:28:26] worked up a plan or discussed using eminent domain to buy an easement forcefully from

[01:28:35] the Gold family and or what we'll talk about next is filing a lawsuit against the Gold family to

[01:28:41] declare that the public over the course of time had acquired what is known as a prescriptive easement

[01:28:49] and a prescriptive easement if you satisfy the legal requirements is something that you

[01:28:55] don't have to pay for but you by the nature of the term you typically have to go to court

[01:29:03] and sue to have a judge declare that you have this prescriptive easement so in general a

[01:29:09] prescriptive easement requires you to use another's land without permission for 10 or more years

[01:29:18] under a claim that you have the right to do so and as I've thought about this situation

[01:29:26] one of the things that weakens the public's claim to having a prescriptive easement

[01:29:33] is people for centuries have been calling Bill Shull the new caretaker as well asking for

[01:29:43] permission and so by the mere fact that the public was recognizing that they had to get

[01:29:50] permission to go on the Gold property as opposed to having the right to go on their property

[01:29:59] that weakens the claim for a prescriptive easement on the other hand I think one of the

[01:30:04] things that pissed off I mean that's a big legal term pissed off the Gold family was that

[01:30:12] people were going on their property without asking for permission so you presumably had

[01:30:19] a group of people that were asking permission then you had this group of people that weren't

[01:30:22] asking for permission and that group of people arguably could be the group of people that made

[01:30:27] the claim for the prescriptive easement but they probably were not the organized group of people

[01:30:34] I mean I think the 3500 club and all of their documentation leading up to the time that

[01:30:40] the Gold family took the mountains out of use the 3500 club had on their web page and in the canister

[01:30:52] and elsewhere that you need to access these mountains by permission which then means that

[01:30:58] the mountain club the 3500 club would not be a good candidate to make this claim for a

[01:31:03] prescriptive easement yep because they weren't responsible yeah and my podcast opinion on this

[01:31:10] topic no no 100% I agree with you is just you know that the destructive people that go up there

[01:31:19] and just you know not care you know kind of kind of screwed us over kind of fucked us over with

[01:31:25] these amazing mountains and we fought and we fought and you know I understand you know being

[01:31:32] with the club being a person who supports a club I understand what they why they didn't want to pursue

[01:31:40] that because you know what there is there's assholes all over the place and it screws yeah and also

[01:31:47] you know I'm we all know that the club doesn't have unlimited resources and in comparison

[01:31:52] to the Gold family whatever the club has you know pales in comparison to the legal resources

[01:31:59] the Gold family has I mean presumably folks like the Golds have a family law firm that works for the

[01:32:08] family you know maybe not on a daily basis but surely on a weekly or monthly basis they have

[01:32:14] lawyers on retainer and they're pushing back against a claim for a prescriptive easement

[01:32:23] would cost the Gold family some money but in the scheme of what presumably they spend on lawyers

[01:32:29] over the course of a year or two I don't think it would be a significant expense for the Gold family

[01:32:35] yeah and the 3,500 club is a 501c3 so we depend you know for our donations and stuff

[01:32:43] or for the donation sorry I don't represent the 3,500 club let me I put that I gotta put

[01:32:48] that Alex thing before we get into this by the way you know I don't represent them but

[01:32:54] they would have been exhausted of their resources with just that

[01:32:58] what with going up against the Golds for that so you know is there anything you want to

[01:33:04] also you want to add like with the right to roam or something like that oh yeah so when

[01:33:08] when you talk about the Gold family owning 5,000 acres and the Catskills what

[01:33:15] my initial reaction is to consider that in some countries such as Austria, Bolares, Estonia, Finland,

[01:33:26] Iceland, Norway, Scotland, Sweden etc they have a widely recognized right to roam or freedom to roam

[01:33:37] which permits the general public to walk on access use and enjoy the land of others now

[01:33:46] sometimes and I think most more recently than decades or hundreds of years ago but more

[01:33:53] recently these rights to roam are being codified put into written law because

[01:34:00] uh is land ownership is changing and becoming divided and people want uh more and more privacy

[01:34:09] on their land the the rights of the public under the what has been traditionally called

[01:34:14] this right to roam or every man's right um is being you know uh compromised so in some

[01:34:23] countries such as Scotland they've put into written format what the right to roam is now

[01:34:32] the um the practice though is ancient and long-standing in parts of north northern Europe

[01:34:37] and has been regarded so fundamental that it wasn't formalized initially it was just this

[01:34:42] customer practice um and you can go back into feudal times and before feudal times to get

[01:34:48] into the origin of why it was essential that commoners um and uh folks in the feudal period

[01:34:59] had to have access to the land barons uh lands to survive uh and now at the present time

[01:35:07] people more recognize that it's not a question of just basic survival it's more you know a

[01:35:13] spiritual a mind-body thing you know therapeutic thing to get outside to get outdoors to get away

[01:35:19] from the urban environment and just roam or as in Europe they call it ramble uh on the lands of others

[01:35:28] so in Europe this right to roam um does not include the right to exploit the land of someone

[01:35:37] else such as by hunting or logging or engaging in disruptive activities on the land such as

[01:35:42] making fires or driving in vehicles but in some countries it does include the right to camp overnight

[01:35:51] to forage and hunt for food um and in some countries if you have the the ability to hunt uh but it

[01:35:59] varies from country to country I know when my family and I went to Ireland last year

[01:36:07] uh and stayed in the little town of Dingle I did research this for that area that we were staying in

[01:36:14] because I did plan some hikes and did hike right from the village of Dingle the streets of Dingle

[01:36:21] you just walk down a street there'd be a gate leading into a you know a field with like a

[01:36:26] an old road going up it and you could just walk you know open the gate walk

[01:36:31] into these lands and the rule was that if the gate was open when you came to it then you would walk

[01:36:37] through it and leave it open and if the gate was closed when you came to it you would open the gate

[01:36:42] walk through close the gate behind you and continue on your journey and you were permitted

[01:36:48] to go anywhere so long as you didn't disturb the animals you didn't disturb crops you didn't

[01:36:53] take growing crops but if you wanted to forage um the the natural fora and fauna and the the hill

[01:37:01] sides you could do that and I thought that was very cool I mean you just can't do that here and as

[01:37:06] we know from the gold family you can't do it on graham and double top but in parts of northern

[01:37:12] Europe you can ramble around yeah but you know I I also think once again my voice I also think

[01:37:22] their thoughts with being out to ramble are different than ours it seems like people up here

[01:37:30] are here to get the patch and not to ex joints like experience that time in nature when people over

[01:37:36] in Europe are really out there to to get that experience and to get that feel yeah I don't

[01:37:42] know what the the social dynamics are if people in Europe are more into a holistic

[01:37:50] experience when they go outdoors then they are here and people are more inclined to be

[01:37:55] peak baggers in the states I like to think that when I do hike and hang out with others I'm hiking

[01:38:01] and hanging out with the people who aren't peak baggers that we're more of the rambling sorts

[01:38:07] and we're going to go out and enjoy our forest experience and along the way maybe

[01:38:14] bag some peaks but it's not about bagging the peak it's about the the journey along the way

[01:38:22] but there sure is I mean you I see it on social media there's for some people a big emphasis

[01:38:30] on peak bagging yeah the sake of sake of completing a list earning a patch and being

[01:38:37] able to say that they did a certain hike or a certain summit yeah I agree that's you know

[01:38:43] look if that's if that's what you enjoy when you go into the woods that's what you enjoy and

[01:38:48] that's good for you I mean it's it's it's good to get outdoors and to do these things it's also good

[01:38:53] to play tennis if you're into tennis or golf you know yeah people need to recreate there's nothing

[01:39:00] wrong with recreation I'm all for it but the the problem is is there's more if as we have more

[01:39:06] and more people populating the world and we have urban sprawl consuming more and more land

[01:39:14] in natural features what happens to our right to recreate you know the Catskill Mountains are

[01:39:21] it's only so large the area is only so large and as the population increases the ability of people

[01:39:29] to get to the mountains like we talked about last week with these bus services that are going

[01:39:35] to be able to you know transport people into the mountains to engage in activities and we also know

[01:39:41] that the DEC is studying how to handle and adjust the apparent overuse of the trail list

[01:39:52] summits that there's going to be changes going forward so what do we do to open up

[01:39:59] more land make more land accessible maintain a certain level of outdoor activities where you can

[01:40:08] not be you know surrounded by others I mean I would imagine this Saturday if I liked overlook

[01:40:16] or Wittenberg I would find a lot of people at the summit but where I'm planning on going I expect

[01:40:23] over the course of 10 miles that there's probably only going to be a mile or two segment

[01:40:30] where I'm likely to see people nice yeah choose your own path sometimes if you know what you're

[01:40:37] doing all right so dad let's get away from all the depressing stuff that's going on so how

[01:40:45] about we give an experience you had on let's say a gram that is memorable I can honestly say I don't

[01:40:54] think I ever hiked Graham in and of itself I think every time I went to Graham I hiked it in connection

[01:41:04] with double top but I do remember one time and I tried to explain this to Bill Shull

[01:41:10] and it took him a little while to comprehend what I was doing but I told him I was going to go out the

[01:41:17] Sager trail and bang a right can go up under what used to be the stretch that the power lines

[01:41:28] went up to the relay station and so I didn't stay right along that fall line if you will

[01:41:36] that the power lines ran from the summit down you know zigzag back and forth went into the

[01:41:43] woods checked out various things I only did that one time was enough to satisfy my curiosity

[01:41:50] for that route up Graham but it was pretty unique and interesting and then once I got to the top

[01:41:57] I headed over to double top came down almost through traditional way but as I was coming down

[01:42:03] I veered off to the east you ever go to the waterfall that's in that drainage area between

[01:42:09] double top and big Indian I can't say that I have yeah there was a little waterfall I'm going to say

[01:42:15] was like a eight to twelve foot something like that waterfall in there towards towards the east

[01:42:22] or more towards the Sager trailhead well I'm going to say it's more towards um big indian

[01:42:28] as you're going down so no I haven't yeah yeah I was in that drainage area a couple times and one

[01:42:35] of the times I remember what fairly high up in that area I ran into I don't know what you search

[01:42:42] and rescue guys call them but I call them grid lines there was a bunch of strength

[01:42:48] right running from tree to tree out there and I later learned that a number of years before

[01:42:57] a fellow I think he was a hunter I'm not sure but it was lost for a few days in that area

[01:43:04] and they were out searching for him for a few days and eventually found them but I initially I came

[01:43:10] across this string if you will it was like a white string and I followed one for a ways

[01:43:18] and then left and you find another one and follow it for a while and I figured out it was

[01:43:25] you know it was either a stupid way of marking the boundary or that was for a search and rescue

[01:43:32] operation and turned out to be the latter of those two yeah I'll also say for those those who didn't

[01:43:40] do it and I don't think you can now but one of the most miserable bushwax I ever did was

[01:43:45] bushwacking up big indian through that drainage uh because it's just nothing but a tallow

[01:43:53] slope it's just you know all flat almost like quarry rock going through there just slips a lot

[01:44:01] slides a lot a lot of just small vegetation to plow through yeah was was only worth doing one time

[01:44:10] yeah you know when you talk about that uh that string you found but that was that back in like

[01:44:16] 2016 yeah I was a year I was part of that that's where you got me in the search and rescue

[01:44:23] and that's what got the search and rescue team started in the Catskills so I forgot the guy's name

[01:44:29] but he was uh located he was missing he had Alzheimer's and he was missing he was

[01:44:36] seen a lot walking up through the just through the the seager area just going up to double

[01:44:43] top coming back usually a couple hours later and he was missing for quite a while crazy thing is

[01:44:49] is that I'm pretty sure Bill Shull or the caretaker of one of the mountains at the time

[01:44:56] found him sitting on one of the creeks with his feet in the water oh yeah wow just uh just sitting

[01:45:03] there and he was like hey wait a minute you're you're missing like and the guy was let's like what

[01:45:09] I'm just up here for a stroll yeah but he was out there for a few days right yeah three days

[01:45:15] three days yeah so we went out uh during day one and then a severe thunderstorm happened and they

[01:45:21] called us off of the mountain uh that was uh searching all of the area up along the banks of

[01:45:28] the river going to archville I forgot what the the creek is called down there through there

[01:45:34] but we were searching from archival all the way up to there so that's you know

[01:45:40] that's miles and miles like 10 miles of uh that and they were up they've already searched the

[01:45:46] mountains they already searched the trails they already searched the herds path and uh two days

[01:45:51] after that you know it was called back there for the next day and we did like a hasty search around

[01:45:57] this certain area but then they eventually found him in one of the drainages just

[01:46:02] having his feet in the water so were were you part of the crew that was laying down

[01:46:06] that grid line that string no not at that time no at that time it was the forest rangers the forest

[01:46:13] rangers were doing that that was a grid search yeah but that was that that was one of my fond memories

[01:46:19] oh Jesus that was one of my fond memories of of going up gram uh kind of gram for the first

[01:46:26] time and you know I tatt I approach gram once once uh with the the power lines as well

[01:46:34] and we we followed the power lines all the way up the ridge and it was a great

[01:46:39] ascent going up and then you hit that one part of gram where you just hit steepness

[01:46:44] and it just goes straight up it's absolutely phenomenal yeah and then you you hit those trees

[01:46:49] that I you can almost you can't jump to touch the top of them but you can feel like you can

[01:46:55] because they're so low to the ground yeah and uh on the way back down we went down through

[01:47:02] uh the kind of like the eastern slope the ridge going back in the gram that leads into what I call

[01:47:09] the v of double top and gram it's just unique a geological area that it's just seriously

[01:47:16] slipped like a v I could step on one side and step on the other and be on ground on double

[01:47:21] top at the same time yeah you know and so for me there's there's other areas that are like that

[01:47:26] in the Catskills but one of the things I remember was my first time uh hiking that loop

[01:47:33] double top gram also lake is I took the herd path up to double top and then I banged her right

[01:47:41] and headed over towards gram and I'm I'm going down into the the v the saddle and

[01:47:49] uh I ran into an area where it was just kind of this gnarly somewhat tall as somewhat plucked up

[01:47:58] boulder area and so I I climbed out of it and went more to I guess the north and headed into

[01:48:07] the coal that way and as I come over to gram you it was in the spring so you could see up

[01:48:13] gram from the the depth of that v and I looked at it and I said holy shit this is pretty steep

[01:48:22] right and and so I said but that's okay I'm I'm gonna buy this and like you know 100

[01:48:29] foot vertical chunks at a time you know I'm gonna hike up a hundred vertical feet take a break hike

[01:48:36] up another hundred vertical feet take a break and I I hike with this little altimeter watch

[01:48:41] so I was going to pace myself up it and I find myself getting to like 75 feet up that first leg

[01:48:49] and it's like no way I had to stop then the next bite I took I'm like down to 50 feet

[01:48:55] and eventually it was just like I'm going like you know 10 steps it seems and I'm like you

[01:48:59] know like stopping to catch my breath it was just incredibly steep it was you know

[01:49:04] really hard to get up going right up the center and so I learned from that first experience

[01:49:09] to head a little bit further to the left of the midline and it was much better going up that way

[01:49:16] so that became my preferred route for the rest of the times I went through there actually

[01:49:21] led some group hikes through there um it's a lot of fun I had a good good time doing that hike

[01:49:26] because you go through the uh the forest on top of gram which was that you know more of an

[01:49:32] alpine forest then you hit the pygmy for the the the alpine forest on double top then the pygmy

[01:49:40] forest on gram and then you go into the the more of the spruce forest on uh balsam lake yeah and

[01:49:48] with the fire tower typically around sunset made for a good day yeah you know and then you know

[01:49:54] those times that that area leading from double top up to gram was absolutely awesome steep

[01:49:59] ledges everywhere uh such like that and you know one time I went up with my friend John

[01:50:04] who was previously on the show and we went up during the winter and uh when we we took the

[01:50:12] the usual path of gram uh we started hitting like towards the steep areas and all of a sudden

[01:50:18] the the weather changed dramatically it went from you know 35 degrees down to zero degrees

[01:50:25] down with like 20 mile per hour winds uh I wouldn't say snow but it was was a nice

[01:50:31] sheet of of like ice and and fog and mist and every tree was hanging low and

[01:50:40] what again Jesus from that area we had to crawl all the way up to gram and it was just

[01:50:48] amazing experience and we only spent probably a good 15 seconds on top of gram and I was like

[01:50:57] we gotta we gotta get out of here this is this is like crappy conditions it's too cold it's too

[01:51:03] windy it's stuff like that and we headed on our way back down and we butt slid well we kind of

[01:51:07] like shoot it down like lose shoot it down to the the lesser steep parts of gram where

[01:51:14] kinds of like breaks over to the left and it leads on to the the the path that like the truck path

[01:51:22] or something the jeep path so it it should we go down turn or how low uh to the Gulf of Mexico

[01:51:29] no on the other side all of uh double top and gram yeah uh I could I could I could

[01:51:37] see if I went down there I'm pretty sure I have is your um

[01:51:40] is your on the jeep trail going up to gram heading uphill turn or how low would be a kind of a left

[01:51:50] turn to the north and it switch backs back and forth it's really it's a lovely area in there

[01:51:57] at least it starts off that way a lot of hardwood forest in that area and you're going down

[01:52:05] this old road that you know back when it was built it was uh improved there was a rock retaining

[01:52:13] walls things of that nature but eventually as you get down uh it just turns into a sea of nettles

[01:52:22] oh yes yeah just like a huge nettle field and one time I went up there with two friends we were

[01:52:29] just doing on double top and gram and they both and I told them you know this is bushwhacking

[01:52:34] wear pants long sleeves they both show up with shorts and short sleeves and the one fellow

[01:52:40] we're going down turn or how low we're somewhat ahead of them you know maybe 20 25 yards and

[01:52:47] we hear something we look back and then one of these nettle fields he had fallen down

[01:52:52] and it's one of these things where it seemed to take him forever to get up and he's tossing

[01:52:57] and he's turning and he's starting to get up and he's slipping and falling and he's just

[01:53:01] like making love to these nettles and sure enough you know when he stands up he's all red and you know

[01:53:09] itching his skin uh it's kind of a funny sight so he got his chops busted but as you went further down

[01:53:18] uh turn or how low you come to a point I'm gonna say oh no I pulled it up here on the

[01:53:26] the map that um yeah I see it yeah it was um

[01:53:34] about a half a mile no I'm gonna say 1500 feet from the road there was a nice waterfall down there

[01:53:42] yeah so at turn or how low there was that waterfall and then there was another one

[01:53:47] uh deeper in the gould property um actually not that far off the old herd path as I look

[01:53:55] look at my map now yeah yeah that's I think that's part of the flat iron is that part of the flat iron

[01:54:01] book no it's a little bit that's a little bit to the south yeah okay yeah so we shouldn't be talking

[01:54:10] about this yeah I mean we don't you know people interest people can't go over there if you do

[01:54:15] don't mention our names yes yes we we don't know you let's hope let's hope uh let's hope once again

[01:54:22] that they're gonna resume access to these mountains because they were special I gotta admit but yeah

[01:54:28] at the same time we should preserve them but well we can do what they do in Europe is they

[01:54:34] do these mass trespasses right where they organize a group of hundreds of people and protest

[01:54:45] by trespassing on people's lands now I don't know how much headway you'd make with the gould

[01:54:50] family doing that they seem they seem to be set in their ways and and they don't care about

[01:54:56] allowing some limited level of access I mean frankly you know if they were really concerned

[01:55:03] about conservation I don't know why they had a relay tower on the top of Graham then yeah

[01:55:11] that that doesn't seem to be of the conservation mindset but maybe it was you know towards the

[01:55:16] public good that they were allowing television signal to get into that the valley and uh

[01:55:25] that seems to be useful I don't know if they profited from that or not but surely given the

[01:55:31] public interest in climbing these two mountains um had they allowed a marked trail

[01:55:38] to be established that would have minimized their concerns and it would probably have lessened the

[01:55:48] level of impact that's occurring now from all of the people bushwhacking over to south double top

[01:55:56] from big indian and or pigeon brook frost valley area yeah it's uh it's a big question

[01:56:06] that goes up in iran's especially us with the bushwhackers and us that have been with

[01:56:10] 35 on our club for a while now are they doing what are they are they doing this for the good or

[01:56:16] like what are they doing this for could the the right of easement or the the marked trails

[01:56:22] could have been the same way as preserving it as not you know will we see him back will we not

[01:56:29] the question I don't know yeah well you you know you can get over to south double top

[01:56:34] it's almost as good as getting to double top proper on the one hand on the other hand

[01:56:40] gram is off limits and you can't tell me that you shut down gram for the purpose of preservation

[01:56:48] I mean after all I would imagine that 80 percent of the people that went to gram went up

[01:56:56] the jeep trail yep okay so exactly that's that's a road you could drive your Jeep up it

[01:57:04] and you got people walking on it it doesn't seem to be a big deal especially when they're going

[01:57:09] to a cleared out area where the old relay tower was and the remains of it are so yeah who even

[01:57:17] knows in that that anyone in the gram family knows that the caretaker shut this down

[01:57:23] yeah right maybe maybe the ghouls will hear this and they'll want to come through

[01:57:26] yeah I'm sure they're frequent listeners yeah right yeah they're is they're hanging out by their

[01:57:32] their lake up there at the lodge fishing yeah yeah all right so this is two hours and seven

[01:57:40] minutes like two hours nice good discussion about gram and double top so post hike bruising bites

[01:57:48] got anything besides towards buddy come on give me some well I I haven't been hiking you're gonna

[01:57:53] have to you know we talked about sals pizza and how you shouldn't microwave your your your day old

[01:57:59] pizza it's just not good but like I said I'm going I'm going out this weekend maybe I'll

[01:58:04] have some good food story for you next week next week yeah my the I'll try one of those

[01:58:10] pizza flavored cliff bars I suggest getting pizza brioze how about that yeah um good stuff

[01:58:18] I could kind of go back that way into it nice sure all right so once again thank you to the

[01:58:24] monthly supporters and the monthly sponsors really appreciate you guys supporting the show

[01:58:28] believing the show thank you to everyone who is still listening to show after 124 episodes

[01:58:32] really appreciate it once again June 8th we'll be at the cat school outdoor expo and we will just be

[01:58:39] kind of promoting the show I don't know if we'll do some live stuff or not but come down and chat

[01:58:44] with us uh love to see you there love to have a good time so sound good dad sounds good you sound

[01:58:50] a little tired stash yeah yeah it sounds like you know you got it you got to train for these

[01:58:56] marathon sessions road is getting killed man yeah all right all right so have a good night

[01:59:02] tat I will chat with you a little bit excellent hi everyone I just want to thank you for listening

[01:59:14] into the show if you enjoyed the show subscribe and throw down a smooth review on Spotify apple

[01:59:22] podcast or any podcast platform that you use you can also check daily updates of the podcast hikes

[01:59:31] hiking memes and local news on facebook instagram twitter and the official website of the show

[01:59:39] remember this you gotta just keep on living the cat skills man

[01:59:45] and I the I wake up wake up wake up