Episode 120 - Team Titus's New Book - Hudson River School of Art and Their Ice Age Origins Book

[00:00:00] See, the evidence is there when you go, the sunset rock is a ledge, but it's got direct immediate

[00:00:07] evidence of the ice age. It's got scratches on its surface where boulders and cobbles were dragged

[00:00:13] across the sandstone by moving ice, by moving glaciers. It's got a fracture pattern that can only

[00:00:20] be created by the passage of a glacier across a bedrock. You can stand, you can look down

[00:00:27] at the rock, you can put your finger, literally put your finger on the evidence and you can point

[00:00:35] the direction that the glacier went. You can turn around and point in the direction that the glacier

[00:00:41] came from. In many locations you can point, you can stand on places where meltwater

[00:00:49] carved canyons. You can look at, well of course, Catskill Clove. It's a canyon

[00:00:54] carved by meltwater. You've been there, you know how big it is. Can you imagine melting glaciers

[00:01:00] created the water that eroded Catskill Clove and Catskill Clove? Can you stand there and go again?

[00:01:16] The bushwax were some of the worst days I've ever had in the mountains or life, really.

[00:01:24] Whereas Pants and Mountains is totally opposite to some mountain on top of a cave.

[00:01:29] I think the weather challenges on this incident were particularly difficult.

[00:01:35] It is really the development of New York State. Catskill's were responsible.

[00:01:45] Now you're listening to Inside the Light, Catskill Mountains Park Gas.

[00:01:54] Wow. You ready to go? I'm ready to go. All right. So, Dad, oh,

[00:02:01] crazy beautiful weather, huh? Well, it was a great day. Spring could be here. Oh, it could

[00:02:07] be so nice. You know, you sent me a picture from your front porch the other day. That

[00:02:10] looked a little too warm for where I was living. Well, it was the first afternoon

[00:02:17] that I came home early from work this year. Sat on the front porch and pulled down a cold beer.

[00:02:25] Wow. And how warm was it? Oh, I don't know. I think it was in the low 70s. Man, it was like 60s up

[00:02:33] here. Man, the wind was blowing. Was it whistling out near Tortue? It wasn't so windy. In fact,

[00:02:39] it hasn't been windy enough really to dry out the yard yet. Well, yeah, yeah, we've

[00:02:44] been having some crazy wet weather. So welcome everyone to Episode 120 of Inside the Line,

[00:02:52] the Catskill Mountain Podcast. Tonight we have Dr. Titus here. I'm getting used to that.

[00:02:57] I got to get used to that, Ted. So I'm very sorry. Do you accept my apology?

[00:03:01] Yes. Yes, God. Apology accepted.

[00:03:05] So tonight we have Dr. Titus and Johanna Titus here on their new book Hudson River School

[00:03:09] of Art and Their Ice Ages. They'll be joining us later on. So we're going to

[00:03:12] chat a little bit and they'll be joining us later. So solar eclipse brought over $3 million

[00:03:19] to Essex County in the Adirondacks. Wow, that's crazy to think about. And I mean,

[00:03:28] awesome. Absolutely phenomenal. A lot of people object to this, you know, like,

[00:03:32] oh, don't come into my thing. But, you know, that's a hell of a lot of money.

[00:03:37] And just because of that, they ought to do it more often.

[00:03:40] We need more eclipses.

[00:03:42] We need more fake eclipses. Yes.

[00:03:45] Fake eclipses.

[00:03:47] So yeah, so the regional offices of the Sustainable Tourism in Lake Placid released new numbers on

[00:03:52] the eclipse, which they didn't really capture an amount of people, which I could own. I'm

[00:03:57] curious of what they are. But overnight visitation was calculated based on a 95% occupancy data

[00:04:04] reported by hotels and other rental services. And it does not include day trippers or

[00:04:09] those who stayed with families and friends. So the estimate represents an increase of around

[00:04:14] $2 million at the same time of last year. And found very positive was once again,

[00:04:20] we chatted last week about there being no rescues except for one rescue, which I think

[00:04:25] we'll talk about later. No, that wasn't during the rescue. We'll talk about a rescue later. But

[00:04:29] one little rescue, which I was blown away that there was only one there when I thought

[00:04:34] there would be like 50 or 60 because of the conditions up there. They had ice and snow.

[00:04:40] Remarkable. Yeah, it's just crazy. I'm just glad everybody cooperated and everybody came to these

[00:04:48] terms of what it would probably like up in the upper areas of the Adirondacks. They probably

[00:04:54] saw it when they driving in. There was just no way, absolutely no way I'm dealing with that.

[00:04:58] I'm very happy for that. It's crazy. Imagine hiking down one of those trails after the eclipse

[00:05:06] with hundreds of people if everyone went up to the mountaintops. That would be nuts.

[00:05:12] That would be nuts in those conditions, definitely. Post-home madness especially.

[00:05:20] Everybody probably would have just formed a conga line and grabbed onto each other and

[00:05:24] just fell down the mountain together. There you go. The view wouldn't have been any better

[00:05:30] at the mountaintop. I probably would have thought that the views would have been crowded, but from

[00:05:36] my point of view on social media, I saw that they were actually very good and not a lot of people

[00:05:41] went up there. They just stayed in the valleys and looked at the open areas.

[00:05:45] So, before you move on, I just have one question about the eclipse.

[00:05:52] Now, is it too late to post any more eclipse photos on Instagram or Facebook?

[00:06:00] It doesn't seem like it. A lot of people are doing that.

[00:06:04] You should stop. It's over. It's done. It's beautiful though.

[00:06:08] It is beautiful, but I think no more posting. I think it should be done as of this Friday.

[00:06:13] No more eclipse photos on Instagram or Facebook until the next one.

[00:06:20] Until the next one, 20 years later, right in the middle. Hey, I'm fine. I'm seeing stuff that

[00:06:27] I'm just like fascinated about where they are all throughout Northeast and I'm very happy

[00:06:33] that a lot of people got to experience it and a lot of positive thoughts about the eclipse that

[00:06:38] they said they were glad to travel for five hours to spend that eight hours traveling down south to

[00:06:45] get back home or something. I mean, you had that experience in the eclipse and I had not as good

[00:06:52] of an experience with clear skies and such, but I find it a remarkable time that I would definitely

[00:06:57] go do it again. Yeah, I would too. I don't know if I would personally spend $3 million.

[00:07:04] Correct. You got all those flights going up to Lake Placid and stuff.

[00:07:09] I'm not sure how many people like that, those crazy people. So beyond that, one thing I wanted to

[00:07:14] mention, Tad, that's pretty cool. I think you introduced me to this is the Catskill Crews

[00:07:19] newsletter. So Catskill Crew newsletter. Pretty cool thing. Do you want to explain that?

[00:07:25] Because I'm just starting out. I just sent you the link. I know nothing about it.

[00:07:32] I was expecting you to birddog this, you to bring the intel,

[00:07:35] you to educate everyone on it. But if you want for our next session, if I'm invited back,

[00:07:43] I will bring the info on the Catskill Crew newsletter. Check them out on Instagram.

[00:07:51] And I believe they have a Facebook as well. The guy, sorry, oh God, he's going to kill me.

[00:07:58] Isn't he Matthew? I can't say the guy on there and not go with who it was.

[00:08:07] Okay. All right, so Michael from the Catskill Crew newsletter, he just does recent or upcoming

[00:08:15] events with the Catskills that are happening and it's phenomenal. And next episode, we'll come

[00:08:20] back with what's happening in the Catskills a little bit of what's happening. He's got a lot,

[00:08:25] he does a lot of stuff in there. So does his research. Michael, thank you for that.

[00:08:30] All right. So, Ted, you want to go with this rogue rehabber and now I'll count out. This is

[00:08:35] kind of like your area. No, it's not. That's kind of offensive. So if, yeah, so there was a

[00:08:46] wildlife animal rehabilitator, which in order to do that work, you do need to get registered

[00:08:54] with the DEC. And apparently there were reports of this rehabilitator

[00:09:03] unlawfully accepting raccoons in her home on Long Island. The DEC officers determined that she

[00:09:11] did not have the required rabies vector species license. So she shouldn't have been accepting

[00:09:20] raccoons and they received multiple, multiple tips alleging that she negligent was negligent in her

[00:09:28] rehabilitation practices, allowing raccoons to escape her residence and roam free in,

[00:09:36] in, listen closely, roam free in her vehicle. So I have an image of her driving to a mall on

[00:09:46] Long Island with like 20 raccoons roaming free in her vehicle and then she was disposing of the

[00:09:55] dead raccoons in her residential garbage. What? Yeah, sounds a little crazy. So they inspected

[00:10:06] her home, located five dead raccoons and a possum in crates in the garage or in the garbage outside

[00:10:18] inside the residence. They located a morning dove, an eastern box turtle, other animals that she

[00:10:26] was not permitted to possess, many squirrels according to the DEC. She was allowed to possess

[00:10:33] the squirrels but failed to adhere to the required guidelines preventing, were preventing the squirrels

[00:10:39] from becoming habituated to human contact. The subject was issued for notices of violation for

[00:10:48] illegal possession and trans, transportation of rabies vector species, two counts of illegal

[00:10:55] possession of protected wildlife and a failure to comply with the terms of the wildlife

[00:11:03] rehabilitators permit. Her license is currently under review by the DEC Division of Wildlife.

[00:11:14] So this person could be your neighbor. Wow, you know, I've had problems up here

[00:11:22] with people in the upstate counties with dogs and stuff like that but I've never heard of someone

[00:11:28] accepting in raccoons especially while driving. Just imagine that. I'm trying to think of the

[00:11:35] movie where they had that, where like something was walking across of the movie. I think it was

[00:11:40] like dumb and dumb or something like that. And just, you know, like someone would be like,

[00:11:45] hey, your raccoons are outside in the vehicle and it's 100 degrees outside,

[00:11:49] please come out and get your raccoons. Yeah, well, that seems to fit but this is certainly

[00:11:55] a sad, I mean, you don't know if there was something wrong with this person or if this was

[00:12:01] just normally how she was but I just have an image of her house being a wild habitat for raccoons,

[00:12:11] possums, squirrels, box turtles, all sorts of things. And I think raccoons are absolutely

[00:12:17] adorable. They are just so cute, the chubbiness in their small hands. I just think they're

[00:12:22] adorable but they also, like you said, carry rabies and stuff and they just want their trash

[00:12:28] pandas. Well, so if you're going to have raccoons, you need a special license from the DEC.

[00:12:36] All right, I'll have to talk to my wife about that. So we talked earlier about a little

[00:12:43] sort of rescue up in the Adirondacks. This was, looks like, once again, I asked when

[00:12:49] the eclipse was, god damn, what does it say May? So the eclipse was the second. This was,

[00:12:56] or the first, this or the eighth, Jesus, sorry, this was the eighth. So on April 5th, 1905 or

[00:13:03] 905 pm, Ray Book Dispact received a call from a hiker requesting a ride because his camping gear

[00:13:10] got wet while on the Roostered Comacryl in the Adirondacks. Also because the hiker is not

[00:13:16] injured, Dispatch encouraged him to make his way out to the trail. I get a ride and find lodging.

[00:13:22] So at 930 pm, which is 25 minutes later, the 22-year-old from Massachusetts called back and said

[00:13:28] he was too cold and didn't know if he could navigate the steep embankment with his bicycle.

[00:13:33] Now this is once again April 5th and there's still snow and ice up there. So I don't understand

[00:13:39] how this happened. Now Forest Ranger P, I'm going to call that Forest Ranger P because the last name

[00:13:46] is pretty difficult to remember. Practice Zachdral made contact with the subject, located the campsite

[00:13:52] to retrieve the biking gear and help them to a local motel. The hiker was not dressed appropriately

[00:13:57] for the conditions wearing only sneakers, jeans, and a light jacket. Now that sounds fun.

[00:14:06] I saw the pictures. That was pretty crazy. Well, my first observation is he calls in at 9.05

[00:14:15] and then calls back at 9.30, 25 minutes later. So I have this image of this fellow

[00:14:22] shivering and freezing in the nighttime and counting minutes off his watch until he makes

[00:14:30] that call again. Because for 25 minutes, that's all he allegedly tried to self-rescue himself.

[00:14:38] So it seemingly doesn't sound like he put out that much effort, made the call, the second call at 9.30

[00:14:47] and doesn't say here what time they got to him and how far in he was. But it sounds like

[00:14:54] a truly miserable experience for this 22-year-old fellow from Massachusetts wearing only sneakers,

[00:15:03] jeans, and a light jacket. Yeah, looking at the maps, that is located right in between the

[00:15:12] giant mountain wilderness and the Johnsbrook primitive area. So it's pretty, it's 2,500 feet

[00:15:19] in elevation, top elevation. So it goes from, it looks like 17, around 1,700, 1,500 feet. So that's

[00:15:27] a 1,200 foot elevation hike or whatever you're thinking. But once again, at these times they had

[00:15:33] snow and ice there. So to say how I'm going to bring my bicycle up here, I don't even know what

[00:15:39] that has. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just once again, these situations baffle me. Like your

[00:15:45] situation once again with the people going up Wittenberg, I know you want to see an awesome

[00:15:50] view and I've heard Rusicoma actually has one of the most fantastic views in the Andorondex.

[00:15:56] But to put yourself through this misery, especially when like, I would like to know

[00:16:01] when this person started to make a call at 9 o'clock, that's just absolutely insane. 9 p.m.

[00:16:09] Also, it was when I was 22 years old, I probably would have done the same thing.

[00:16:13] See, see. And I go out to bars, I wasn't a hiker at that time. So you're a lot cooler than me.

[00:16:21] So craziness up in the upstate New York once again. So my friend Todd Bolt sent this. So Todd is a

[00:16:28] follower of the show. And he said, he sent me a little link that said the stairway to heaven

[00:16:35] in Hawaii is to set to be destroyed. So this place in Hawaii, if anybody seen like the pictures of

[00:16:44] a basically a great big massive staircase going up in the mountain, that is called the

[00:16:50] highway to heaven or the stairway to heaven in Hawaii. And that has been closed ever since

[00:16:57] I'm pretty sure the early 2000s. And it's 3922 slick steel steps that ascend the narrow ridges

[00:17:06] of the Kahua mountain range has been illegal hike since 1987. So sorry, really 2000 Jesus trespassing

[00:17:13] cost hikers $1,000 per citation, but thousands still attempted for the scenic view and just

[00:17:19] because of social media to get that picture on those steps. So now with crazy rescues and such

[00:17:30] going on in Hawaii, I know there's helicopter rescues probably every I've heard of every week

[00:17:37] or so maybe even more often than that in the Hawaii area just because of massive steep purchase

[00:17:43] up in Hawaii that just rises in elevation instantly, that this area is now to be destroyed

[00:17:49] because people are just pursuing this without saying anything while doing anything at all. It's

[00:17:54] crazy. So from what you say, I gather that even with a $1,000 fine, people still do this.

[00:18:05] And if people still do it with a $1,000 fine, although it's prohibited,

[00:18:11] what will people still do in the CAT skills if the DEC put certain restrictions on hiking the

[00:18:18] trailless summits without a permit or something else with some other license guide or other

[00:18:26] approval from them? Does it really deter people from going where they want to go?

[00:18:32] Maybe to only a small degree. What do you think, Stash?

[00:18:36] I don't think that'll ever happen here. That's a little bit far out there.

[00:18:41] It's not whether it happens or doesn't happen, but what if it does? What if the DEC

[00:18:46] says $250 fine if you hike Rocky? What do you say? You're going to still hike it?

[00:18:53] Depends on where they're telling me I can't hike it from.

[00:18:56] Can't hike it from it. You can't hike it from anywhere unless you have a license guide with

[00:19:01] you. You get your guiding license.

[00:19:08] Every so, there you go. You're going to have how many people have completed the $3,500?

[00:19:13] So it's from 4,000 people, a little over 4,000 people. So 4,000 new people are going to get

[00:19:17] their guiding license. I guess it's a way to raise revenue.

[00:19:22] I was just going to say, it's a way for the DEC to get more money besides doing a podcast.

[00:19:27] Boom. So speaking of that, the stairway to heaven, between August 2017 and March 2020,

[00:19:37] police officers turned away 11,420 people attempting to hike the stairs.

[00:19:45] That's pretty crazy that you know there's $1,000 fine, but at least they've turned away them and

[00:19:51] not fined them. It sounds like it's time to rebuild the stairs.

[00:19:56] I'm pretty sure, so I'm trying to read about this.

[00:20:05] They've been people around there have been complaining of disturbances by the hikers,

[00:20:10] hot fences, trespats under the private property and such, steep cliffs, unpredictable weather,

[00:20:16] of course. It is very dangerous and any mistake can result in a helicopter rescue.

[00:20:23] Once again, the helicopter rescue, there's not a bit of fatality on there, but between 2010 and

[00:20:28] 2022 more than 188 people were rescued, paid by the taxpayers. So I'm guessing the people around

[00:20:35] there are just sick and tired of this. And helicopter rescues are not very, very cheap

[00:20:44] these days. Let's just say that I've never gotten one, but I've heard about them.

[00:20:48] And they say, a bill was introduced last year to make people pay for their own rescues,

[00:20:56] but it did not pass. So just like the White Mountains where they have the hike safe card,

[00:21:01] and you can kind of get out of that, you don't have the safe card. If you were doing negligence,

[00:21:06] you will get fined and you will get charged that probably $10,000 to the helicopter rescue.

[00:21:11] So maybe they should start doing that in Hawaii because of how much crap has hit the fan

[00:21:16] in the past four or five years with the rise of social media. It makes sense,

[00:21:22] make people buy a hike safe card or it's equivalent, make them get a little education when they buy

[00:21:27] the card online and presumably it'll reduce at least by a few the number of rescues and

[00:21:34] subsidize the expense of the rest. Should be license guides down there, the license guides

[00:21:40] only everywhere. Boom, done. Yeah. I could get into being a license guide in Hawaii.

[00:21:47] Yeah, that's pretty, I would be scared shitless. We should take the show on the road and go to

[00:21:53] Hawaii and be on location. That's what I'm saying. I'm going to call an executive meeting

[00:22:02] of the podcast. We're going to have draped over microphones on us while we're hiking.

[00:22:07] Whatever it takes. I'd have to add out all the heavy breathing that we're doing because those are

[00:22:12] does, that's what sounds like two elderly porn stars.

[00:22:22] Big silence right there. Those are crazy metaphor or whatever, but it's actually

[00:22:30] actually does say it. So good point. What else we got? So famed alpinist sex or sex Jesus sets to

[00:22:42] make record on Everest. So this guy, Valerie Babinoff, one of the world's most testicle

[00:22:48] Alpine climbers said he's been preparing for this all of his life. So he's 59 years old

[00:22:53] and he wants to set the record of going up Everest without bottled oxygen. So the oldest

[00:22:59] person to push up Everest without bottled oxygen, 59 years old and he is set to do this. It looks like

[00:23:09] soon. He didn't say anything. He doesn't, he looks way older than 49. Sorry to say this, Valerie.

[00:23:16] Right? Have you seen a picture of him? Oh, that's what I thought. I wasn't going to say it.

[00:23:20] I was going to be politically correct and not comment on his age and or appearance, but yeah.

[00:23:27] I thought he looked more like 69 or somewhere in his 70s. Yeah, but he's going to try it without

[00:23:34] oxygen. God bless him. He'll need that help. Maybe you should get that high-safety card.

[00:23:41] Yeah, I think so. Yeah. The one thing I think we talked about this a little bit is the whole

[00:23:47] blown out of proportion thing of Everest right now. How, you know, it just how much the

[00:23:55] thought of it, the cost of doing it right now, it just blows my mind beyond that. And to say that

[00:24:01] you've done it and you're like, hey, I did it, but then you have eight Sherpas doing the work for

[00:24:06] you just blows my mind. Yeah, I don't understand it and enough people do it and apparently it

[00:24:14] does something for them. People go all around the world climbing those super big mountains and

[00:24:21] I just don't understand what the, I guess there's a rush to it, but it's not for me.

[00:24:28] Yeah, agreed. And you know, I mean, I love those situations of craziness. You know,

[00:24:34] you get those weather situations, but after reading books about people's climbs up Everest,

[00:24:40] you know, I read a book, I forgot his name, but it was called K2, Life or Death.

[00:24:46] And he sat, well, he didn't sat. He laid in his tent for, I think it was like 18 days

[00:24:54] trying to get good weather. So imagine laying in your tent, boiling up water every day, just water,

[00:25:01] and then you have to eat. Like I'm pretty sure he said like snicker bars or granola bars every

[00:25:05] day. Nope. Said he lost 45 pounds. Wow. And then he still tries to make the summit.

[00:25:11] He did. Right. He actually did. Yeah. Wow, that's crazy.

[00:25:14] To lose all that weight and still have the energy to get up there. And speaking of that,

[00:25:21] he did it without oxygen. He was one of the first people to climb all those 14 peaks.

[00:25:26] I forgot what they called those, the 8000 meters or something. Do they give you more than just

[00:25:32] a patch to put on your backpack if you do that? I was wondering that too as well. Like how the

[00:25:38] are you climbing in the Catskills and you get noticed that you've like climbed,

[00:25:43] how do you brag that hey, I did not ever, it's bro. Yeah, this is nothing.

[00:25:48] Maybe they can tell because you're not even breathing as you go up slide or plateau.

[00:25:55] Or there's eight Sherpas with them taking up stuff up slide mountain.

[00:25:59] Carrying off your gear along. Like those license guides do?

[00:26:04] I have to carry that? What? I carry a backpack? No. I've climbed Everest. I don't wear backpacks.

[00:26:11] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So good luck to him. Really, really good luck.

[00:26:19] Pretty sure. All right. So that's it for...

[00:26:22] So thank you to the monthly supporters Chris, Darren, Vicki, John, Betsy, Denise, Vanessa,

[00:26:28] Joseph, Jim, Michael and David. Really appreciate you guys supporting the show.

[00:26:34] The list is so long that I had to say their only first names because it took so long and then I

[00:26:38] just mess up everything. So you guys thank you very much for supporting the show. Really

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[00:27:14] Another summit's epic adventure applications are open. This year's epic adventure include a

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[00:27:38] Applications are open until May 1st for the Allagash River trip and May 15th for the

[00:27:42] Northville Placid Trail. Apply today at another summit.org. Also, is it time for some new gear

[00:27:49] hiking and the Catskills? Say no more. Camp Catskill in Tannersville has all your hiking needs,

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[00:27:58] They have all the essentials for your hiking needs located in Tannersville and online.

[00:28:03] Check out Camp Catskill if you want free stickers. Stop here. So, Ted, you having a coffee?

[00:28:09] T, what are you having tonight? Oh, I'm having another cup of home brewed coffee.

[00:28:16] What makes this cup special is the fact that I ground up some beans I roasted over the weekend.

[00:28:24] So, it's about as backyard mug as I can get. And I have gotten those crushed beans one time

[00:28:34] and it was absolutely fantastic. It was like I was climbing Mount Everest and then people

[00:28:42] Nepalese, is that what you call them? Nepalese were giving me their own ground coffee beans.

[00:28:49] It's fantastic. So, previous hikes or lame excuses? Let's say previous hikes or lame excuses.

[00:28:55] I got a lot of up that. What do you got for me? Oh, so on, what was it? Sunday? No, Saturday.

[00:29:07] I was planning to hike up to South Doubletop over the High Falls Ridge. But that hike, the way I wanted

[00:29:18] to do it entailed some water crossings. I knew the water crossings were going to be less than ideal

[00:29:25] and more than just crossing the water, I really wanted to follow up the pigeon brook

[00:29:28] for quite a ways because it is an interesting brook in the Catskills. So, as I set out,

[00:29:35] I was a little indecisive whether I should do that or do something else. But as I'm driving into

[00:29:40] the Catskills, the snow started flying and I decided to go with the best winter experience

[00:29:49] you could probably get in the Catskills on Saturday and that was going up Slide Mountain.

[00:29:56] So, that's what I did. I got into the parking lot. I was the third car there.

[00:30:01] Another fellow was setting out just as I got there. He was doing or working on his 420. He was at about

[00:30:08] number 330 on the list and I did run into two other fellows along the way who were also

[00:30:18] doing a big hike that day, at least on my way up. So, it's a fun hike but one of the things

[00:30:24] that did remind me of is I was setting out right after signing in is what I mentioned a few

[00:30:30] weeks ago about the lack of a bridge crossing the West Branch because the water was high enough

[00:30:41] that it was somewhat challenging to get across. It wasn't impossible but I could imagine other

[00:30:47] people coming along that day and having some difficulty with that. So, it really begs the

[00:30:54] question why the DEC hasn't put a bridge there. It's not as if they need to log the material

[00:31:02] from the parking area a mile in in order to establish the bridge. It's right there. So,

[00:31:12] at any rate I made it across the bridge and I went up the Curtis Ormsby Trail and for those

[00:31:17] of you who have never gone up the Curtis Ormsby Trail, don't leave it to those who have been there

[00:31:24] before. So, it doesn't get overused and abused because I think one of the best trails in the

[00:31:30] Catskills to go up. I'm sure you've been up at Stash. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely enjoyable

[00:31:37] and it is off the not say the beaten path but the beaten path of Slide Mountain. It is off.

[00:31:43] Yes. And one of the things I like about the Curtis Ormsby Trail is you really have a sense

[00:31:50] when you're transitioning from one forest type into the next as you go up the Curtis Ormsby Trail

[00:31:58] and it just had that same wonder and magic this past Saturday as it has

[00:32:07] on prior hikes up there. So, nonetheless I made it up to the top of Slide Mountain,

[00:32:14] looked around for some Adirondack chairs to relax in and there were none

[00:32:20] and then just turned around and headed back.

[00:32:23] Disappointing man. I don't think somebody's going to go back up there and do that.

[00:32:27] Yeah. What about the conditions? Where did you deal with like ice and snow and

[00:32:31] such like that? Yeah. So, I was able to bare boots the whole way although I didn't have

[00:32:37] my micro spikes with me. It was warm enough in the days leading up to this that it seemed like

[00:32:43] there was some heat underneath the ice. The ice was soft, the freshly fallen snow was wet snow

[00:32:50] so it was really sticking to the ice if you will and I was getting really good traction on it.

[00:32:56] Going up the Curtis Ormsby, I don't think I had any ice the entire way going up it.

[00:33:04] I did though once it turns on to the main cheap trail to the summit of Slide, run into some ice

[00:33:11] coverage but like I said it was really grippy and I got good traction on it. Nice. Yeah, that

[00:33:18] Curtis Ormsby trail really differentiates from the regular trail going up slide because of course

[00:33:25] that trail going up slide used to be an old carriage road that led you up to the highest

[00:33:29] mountain in the Catskill so it was very popular but once going off of that trail you get a sense

[00:33:34] of how good it could be if it wasn't an old carriage road and how deep you are with the

[00:33:43] mountains off of that trail because people are like, ah, it's a little bit longer. I don't

[00:33:48] want to take that trail but then us true hikers are like, yeah we're going to take this trail

[00:33:54] because it's a little bit longer. Yeah, it's good that the peak baggers have something that gets them

[00:33:59] up to the top and it's a very durable surface and it keeps them off the Curtis Ormsby because it

[00:34:04] takes wear and tear off the Curtis Ormsby and for those of us who want a little more extended hike

[00:34:12] get the benefit of going up what is an older more natural progression to the summit than

[00:34:19] what I call the Jeep trail you call it the carriage trail. That's true definitely.

[00:34:26] But awesome well good, didn't you say you dealt with something on the way down too as well?

[00:34:32] You didn't hit just snow and you hit rain as well right?

[00:34:36] I'm not going to say well on the mountain no there was in them when I first got to the

[00:34:40] parking lot it was just a very light wet rain not enough to put on rain gear from the parking lot

[00:34:50] going out and I have to say once you know I got into that first you know maybe 75 feet 100 feet

[00:34:58] up from the parking area it was more solid precipitation and then whatever precipitation

[00:35:04] I had from there on up or down was the white stuff so I was okay with the precipitation.

[00:35:12] What I did see was on my way down I started running into hikers who

[00:35:20] and some of them told me this that they didn't check the weather forecast in the morning

[00:35:24] they were just going out on what they saw Friday as being the forecast and the forecast

[00:35:28] did change it wasn't calling for as cold of temps or the precipitation that they got on Saturday so

[00:35:36] I saw a few people who kind of looked like that 22 year old who was up in the Adirondacks with his

[00:35:42] bike you know one guy had short sleeves on and what looked like sweatpants no gloves

[00:35:49] ran into another fellow without gloves and

[00:35:52] um I'm sure on the way down they got cold. Yeah sounds like one of those fun days of where

[00:36:02] you basically have to pack for everything that that you got going on because it might just happen.

[00:36:10] Yeah you never know. Yeah you want to talk about the yellow trash bag guy?

[00:36:16] Oh well that was the one guy the one guy that just had a short sleeve shirt on

[00:36:20] and sweatpants um when he first when I first saw him you know like a hundred and some yards away from me

[00:36:29] I was like wow that's kind of an odd looking get-up he's wearing and as he got closer it became

[00:36:36] apparent that he had apparently just taken a trash bag out of the trunk of his car

[00:36:43] and cut some holes in it for his arms and threw it over himself and that's what he

[00:36:49] was hiking up the mountain with and talk about a Sherpa as I remember there was two of them

[00:36:54] there was the fellow in the yellow trash bag and then another person they were together right behind

[00:37:00] him who was carrying the backpack and a couple polar spring water bottles and I don't know

[00:37:08] it looked like it might have been their first hike in the Catskills and I take it because

[00:37:12] there was no range of reports regarding rescues or assistance that day that whether they made

[00:37:18] it to the top or not they made it back to their car safely.

[00:37:22] I'm good good for that and good for him for kind of improvising at that time

[00:37:27] you know I would say if you listen to the show get a hold of me I'm going to shake your hand

[00:37:31] because usually people are just like yeah t-shirt and sweatpants will be fine it's only this

[00:37:35] it's only the Catskills. Yeah well maybe that was the start of his preparation

[00:37:41] to some day before he turned 60 climbing Everest without oxygen. It all started with the

[00:37:49] with the yellow trash bag going up slide mountain in the Catskills.

[00:37:53] Here's a new book that somebody's gonna write yeah that's a guy this guy's gonna

[00:37:57] write a new book the yellow trash bag guy copyright that crap so well cool yeah I

[00:38:05] once again lame excuse uh what did I do to there's volunteered for something that's what I hear

[00:38:12] did I I don't know I probably did I don't remember I was probably sleeping but oh yeah I had a hockey

[00:38:19] game that night it was the last hockey game of the season on Sunday so gotta do that but today I

[00:38:25] went out and I did some disc golfing today I did some awesome disc golfing up at Opinoni

[00:38:30] Anto with my friend Alex and we both did really like a great great course up there if you don't

[00:38:38] know disc golfing is basically free anywhere so I have not hit a place before I had to oh I had

[00:38:44] to pay in Oniata that place makes it pay but there are very state very many state forests

[00:38:50] that have made old ccc areas you know some forest areas into disc golf courses

[00:38:57] and you know buy some you know 20 disc online and then go out and find UDISC which is a an app that

[00:39:04] shows you where these places are UDISC yeah sounds cool it's all right so you're you're hanging out

[00:39:10] with Alex inside joke I need to know what did you bring the Tesla oh you took him out in the

[00:39:19] new Tesla nice nice did he like it he loves it he I don't know how he thinks it's no

[00:39:25] different it's just got a little more miles it's a little bit more punch but no no different but

[00:39:30] he loves it he wanted he wanted to go all the way to Voorheesville to go disc golfing so he

[00:39:36] doesn't he doesn't like long drives but then he wants to drive long distances away to go bowl

[00:39:40] or go disc golf does he want to drive the Tesla he does not want to drive that thing really no

[00:39:48] he's he's too afraid that it's it's gonna kill but we had a beautiful day to be outside 60

[00:39:55] probably around 65 degrees here with wind so it was just it was just beautiful and I wish I was

[00:40:01] out in the Catskills or something but you know at the same time I thought I was just like man those

[00:40:06] higher elevations have got to be the absolute worst conditions of the year oh I don't know

[00:40:11] I would have I would have gone into the mountains today if I had the chance

[00:40:14] true damn good point I would have too I'll go down I'll be there next week next week next Tuesday

[00:40:19] I'm going out I got it next Tuesday and this Sunday we might be going out to a Bramley Mountain

[00:40:24] once again I gotta get out there and get to see what they're doing so speaking about

[00:40:29] Bramley Mountain Catskill News Volunteer 3500 club Catskill Trail Crew Catskill Mountain Club

[00:40:35] Visitor Center Jolly Rovers Trail Crew and Bramley Mountain Firetower if you're up

[00:40:40] towards me that everybody needs volunteers stickers get some stickers here I know there is a volunteer

[00:40:49] opportunity at Camp Catskill so Catskill Camp Catskill cleanup crew April 20th so Saturday

[00:40:57] April 20th so at 9 a.m join us for a roadside cleanup event at Camp Catskill with Leave No

[00:41:04] Trace and Hike On Guides they're gonna be located at let's see Hunter Mountain Brewery

[00:41:13] Park and Land at 9 a.m to clean up Tracer along 23a and Hunter so anybody and everybody gets this

[00:41:19] on Friday and wants to go out just for a nice time with crew of Camp Catskill be there 9 a.m I

[00:41:26] won't be there I unfortunately have to work I don't get the weekends off I'm like the only

[00:41:30] dude that doesn't get the weekends off gotta do what you gotta do this is America right that's

[00:41:35] right gotta pay that mortgage I got the end of carbs everything else all right weather forecast

[00:41:42] quick weather forecast so I'm looking at Friday Saturday and Sunday on Pekamuse Mountain so

[00:41:48] Friday calls for temperatures 40s mid mid 30s to the mid 40s cloudy with late rain rain

[00:41:55] showers going on into the night not too bad Saturday looks absolutely stunning clear skies

[00:42:03] almost throughout the whole day a high of 34 low 19 with a windshield of negative or not

[00:42:10] negative 19 but 19 degrees when winds are gonna be high 30s Sunday looks absolutely beautiful

[00:42:17] again some clouds mainly clear with a high of 28 to 34 basically and then the wind chills

[00:42:24] getting down in the low 20s so get out this weekend crush it up have some fun be safe prepare for

[00:42:32] bring your spikes you won't probably need snow shoes but definitely spikes because they higher

[00:42:35] elevations might have some ice especially in those areas where they don't see sun so

[00:42:40] Ted do you have any plans this weekend I might get back to that plane that I was

[00:42:45] going to do this past weekend I Falls Ridge up to South Double Top explore the pigeon brook

[00:42:51] or I have something more esoteric up my sleeve you'll just have to stay tuned to see which one

[00:42:59] and looking forward looking forward to it always do all right so let's get on to the

[00:43:05] last of the sponsors you know we are Catskill history the what we're doing is Catskill

[00:43:10] history tonight with Dr. Titus so he's going to do some Castle history about that

[00:43:16] so last set of sponsors so if you ever wanted more to learn more about hiking or backpacking

[00:43:21] or even just brush up and should be your old skills in the backcountry check out trail brown

[00:43:24] project a hiking and backpacking school Scott and Joe for the New Jersey search and rescue team

[00:43:29] have amazing backgrounds with wilderness first aid wilderness first responder and the mountain

[00:43:33] rescue association and they are here for you to learn old and new skills of hiking and

[00:43:37] backpacking they teach anything from first aid map and compass skills and many other

[00:43:42] that could help you and others out in the trail check them out on their website and all

[00:43:45] social media platforms also check out outdoor chronicles photography molly from outdoor

[00:43:50] chronicles photography specializes in adventure aloha and a venture couple photography the

[00:43:55] Catskills at her index and the white mounts she's an efficient for getting married and a licensed

[00:43:59] guide but she is also a story maker molly won't just give you photos she'll give you memories

[00:44:04] that will last forever don't hesitate to get a hold of molly on plall platforms all right so let's

[00:44:10] get onto the guest of the night well guest of the night let's go as a guest of the night

[00:44:18] so dr titus robert titus and johanna titus are here to talk about their new book hudson river

[00:44:23] school of art and their ice age origins now once again dr titus uh it's it's been a while hey

[00:44:30] dr titus retired five years ago i'm bob what no okay no that okay bob retired okay so i will

[00:44:41] i will i will go refer to you as bob now bob and johanna are here tonight talk about their new

[00:44:46] book and bob was here and johanna i think you were also here on oh as well as the last episode we have

[00:44:53] which was episode 12 so that was a 108 episodes ago so i think you you were popping in once

[00:45:00] uh once in a while johanna on this and uh you guys were at my one other episode so i thank you

[00:45:05] guys very greatly for joining me on that it was fantastic it was good to have you guys there

[00:45:09] it's good to meet you it was fun day it was crazy wasn't it it was good showing yeah never thought it

[00:45:16] would be like that congratulations on that too thank you thank you i really appreciate it it's been

[00:45:21] fun it's been a great time so uh let's get a little background from from both of you uh bob

[00:45:27] will start with you first and johanna maybe well i'm a geologist but specifically i'm an invertebrate

[00:45:34] paleontologist with a real fondness for the ice age and uh i've been writing for the general public

[00:45:43] since 1991 was that 30 third of a century and we've got a cat moving our computer around right here

[00:45:54] bear up with us uh i'm only one half of the family here i'm only one scientist in the family

[00:46:01] here so i'm going to ask johanna to introduce yourself i'm johanna titus of course uh wife of

[00:46:09] robert titus and i came into the picture in 1998 and have been working with the other scientists in

[00:46:20] the family for that amount of time and i am a biologist by training i do have a minor in environmental

[00:46:32] science so i know some geology and what i don't know i've kind of absorbed from the other half

[00:46:41] tell him what your master's degree is in it's in molecular biology she's a smart one in the family

[00:46:49] whoa my my biology yeah and black but it's a molecular biology that kind of no longer exists

[00:46:58] because the subject has advanced so far so quickly that i could probably only participate in maybe

[00:47:10] 30 percent of it if i'm lucky so the two of us are used to evolving uh to changing ourselves

[00:47:18] we're living a new life from the one that we had 20 30 years ago as not just popular science

[00:47:25] writers but communicators with numerous lectures powerpoint presentations and podcasts such as your

[00:47:34] own uh we've got 23 engagements scheduled for the next six months we'll be speaking doing

[00:47:43] powerpoints mostly at 23 different locations uh it's a lot of communications that we do and we've

[00:47:50] written uh about 1100 newspaper and magazine columns wow it's just remarkable and we look

[00:47:59] in the mirror go ahead did that happen you know sometimes sometimes i'm sitting here doing this

[00:48:04] and i'm like how the hell do i do this but now uh you're just like putting me to shame

[00:48:09] definitely so putting definitely this is out every week in the mountain eagle we recommend our

[00:48:14] columns to all of your listeners uh the mountain eagle is essentially the newspaper of the catskill

[00:48:20] mountains and we're very proud and uh to be associated with it it's turned into a very

[00:48:26] fine newspaper and it is the voice of the catskills and we're part of that voice

[00:48:31] yeah i definitely follow some of the mountain eagle stuff tad i know you you've read some

[00:48:35] of that stuff correct oh you're muted tad it's all it's all good i don't think you're muted but

[00:48:41] i don't think it's working yeah oh about how can you hear me now there you go there you go he's right

[00:48:48] yes so back to the mountain eagle uh i have read the mountain eagle with uh increasing

[00:48:53] interest in anticipation of tonight's podcast with the titus duo of catskill scientist

[00:49:04] i like it that's that's a new that's a new thing tad you might want to tell them to

[00:49:07] copy right there are you copyright that we're actually team titus team titus there you go tt

[00:49:15] we'll refer to at the uh fdr library as team titus nice i love it so you know with with your

[00:49:24] like qualifier not qualifications so your your degrees and stuff like that uh how would you

[00:49:30] say that the advancements between when you graduated and when you you got your master's degrees and such

[00:49:36] that has far as it has come so jojana you said basically that you can't really participate in

[00:49:41] it because of how far it's come but uh do you guys feel that you can still play the game with

[00:49:46] everybody oh well it all depends on what subject you're asking about um molecular biology i doubt

[00:49:53] that either of us no would you know my best day the geology thank goodness goes a little bit slower

[00:50:05] so uh yeah you know new innovations in geology and new theories in geology are a lot easier to

[00:50:12] keep up with we've witnessed plate tectonics we go back to before plate tectonics it was one of

[00:50:18] the great revolutions in the science of geology we don't anticipate seeing anything like that again

[00:50:26] but we've witnessed we were old enough to witness some of the great moments in the history of this

[00:50:31] science i myself could go back to doing paleontological research tomorrow uh but i like writing so much

[00:50:39] more i like speaking and writing and podcast and radio and a little bit of television every once

[00:50:45] in a while and a little bit of discovery you're right yes yes we're doing wonderful stuff uh

[00:50:50] right now we're investigating the Hudson River School of Art and just this morning i went out

[00:50:58] and i located a place in caterskill clove where a man named paul webber a german landscape

[00:51:06] artist painted uh one of his best works and nobody knew where it had been and i had a pretty

[00:51:13] good idea where he's going to find it i can't uh i wonder what used to be called moore's bridge

[00:51:20] at fawn's leap i bet most everybody listening has been to fawn's leap just above fawn's leap

[00:51:27] i found the very spot where this very substantial Hudson River school artist sat down and sketched

[00:51:35] one of his best paintings wow what a thought it really is yeah definitely going out and

[00:51:42] discovering these spots uh is definitely one of those milestones that you'll remember forever

[00:51:47] because you're just like wow look at this it's it's fantastic look at this um especially with your

[00:51:52] new book but let's uh before we get on to the new book let's talk about your your previous writings

[00:51:57] from both of you basically maybe your books and i'll tag mount neagle with the some of your

[00:52:02] stuff in the show notes so what about your previous writings our best book together uh was

[00:52:10] the Hudson Valley in the ice age we spent about two years driving up and down the middle of Hudson

[00:52:16] Valley and taking pictures and taking notes and thinking about how we would construct the book

[00:52:24] and i think both of us agree it's our best effort uh it's certainly i talked him into it

[00:52:31] she didn't have to she didn't have to talk to him on it too but uh we worked very well together

[00:52:37] on that it was so much fun because we spent so much time in the car just driving around and looking

[00:52:43] at the ice age theology of the Hudson Valley it's been very successful it's all pretty well

[00:52:49] uh a lot of people have uh spoken to us about how how much they enjoyed it we're hoping to get

[00:52:55] the same response about our newest book but the Hudson Valley in the ice ages are our best joint

[00:53:03] effort all together yeah i remember in episode 12 that we talked about that that book that specific

[00:53:11] book and it was uh like to me it's it's it's very uh i'm trying to figure out the word to say very

[00:53:20] in like the image you can you can picture what you're talking about in those in the book like

[00:53:26] you're standing on a certain part of poets ledge like you say or cadres go falls and and you

[00:53:32] understand what you're talking about with the glaciers and the Hudson Valley in the ice age

[00:53:36] in different sections of that and uh it's definitely fantastic imagery is central to our writing

[00:53:44] and what you just mentioned as we go we climbed up the a poet's ledge about 20 years ago do we

[00:53:51] have to mention that uh yeah we have to fess up to it we're not the young as we were back then

[00:53:57] we went up the hard way but as you read in our book when we got there we looked into the past

[00:54:06] not into the into the canyon as much as into a canyon's past and we picked the moment when uh the

[00:54:15] melting of the glaciers was at absolute peak if we filled the valley with melt water and melting

[00:54:22] ice and uh it was very noisy the rush of water down the canyon uh well imagery imagery and imagery

[00:54:32] and we think that's the way to communicate this science uh there are any number of ways of turning

[00:54:39] that image into something that's really boring technical and tedious but we'd like to portray it

[00:54:48] as we see it in our minds eyes definitely with that i would echo those comments i haven't read

[00:54:57] much of your work but it really conveys with a great deal of expression and imagery the processes

[00:55:07] that were at work when these forces were unfolding over the years and i really appreciate that and

[00:55:13] i encourage all of our listeners to read your writings and can i ask the two of you where that

[00:55:22] comes from is it is it one of you sees that more than the other or is it jointly just where does

[00:55:29] this imagery that that finds its way into your writings expressed or who does it come from

[00:55:35] it i think it comes from having the personalities that we've had since we were little kids

[00:55:44] we're we've always been curious um and that's how you kind of get involved in science is

[00:55:51] by asking questions about things you see or things you discover and trying to find the answers to

[00:55:59] those things so both of us knew by age six that we wanted to be scientists we were that young

[00:56:06] and we were that committed to science so you've known each other since what age

[00:56:14] i was starting to think you're more siblings than a married couple how far back do you go

[00:56:19] it was sort of we met each other when uh i was 12 in the late 60s i was 84 or something

[00:56:29] oh i forget you were a pretty kid yeah we just knew each other at the time we weren't involved

[00:56:36] i was friends with his younger sister yeah that's right yeah she's a very close friend of my sisters

[00:56:42] and that curiosity continues to burn to the present time oh sure yeah nice that's fantastic so uh i mean

[00:56:51] once again knowing that you know of your previous books and stuff like that and like you said

[00:56:56] it puts the imagery of when you're standing there of those glaciers being present and that's what i

[00:57:02] find fascinating when i read those books is i'm just like oh wow when i'm looking you know like

[00:57:07] you said poets ledge and you're looking over to hains falls you see that glacier the big ice dam

[00:57:12] that's blocking everything and water is rushing over it and that's how it created

[00:57:16] hains falls that's how it created you know caterscope falls so with this new book that you

[00:57:20] have coming out um is that basically the same kind of of book that you're giving people at these

[00:57:28] different viewpoints uh or spaces places that they they did this art you given them the same

[00:57:34] thought of this is what it looked like yes and i wanted to emphasize i'm sure i really want

[00:57:40] to jump in from the very beginning when we first thought let's write a book uh it occurred to me

[00:57:46] that in this book i wanted us to work together to really explore the communication of the science

[00:57:54] and dump all the technical language and and really center on the imagery uh the poets ledges

[00:58:03] in many ways maybe the most this stunning example the best example of really how we wanted to make

[00:58:10] it a light read an easy read an image laden read uh we really focused on communication as much as the

[00:58:19] science if not more than the science in this book it was something i really wanted to

[00:58:25] to devote myself to impact and it is it's all about image in the fact that we try to convey

[00:58:34] that and this is where the school's plural comes in that the writers that were writing back then

[00:58:44] that were making the stories like james fenimore cooper uh washington erving and the the artists

[00:58:53] that were working and doing these landscapes of these kind of scary wilderness we're communicating

[00:59:02] with each other they were in a lunch bunch that's what they called themselves in new york city

[00:59:09] and they have lunch together and then you have for instance um washington erving doing ripp vann

[00:59:18] winkle and that was in i think 1821 he published it and then you have 1825 and thomas colt coming

[00:59:30] up into the cat skills for the first time and taking a look at this wilderness and painting

[00:59:38] this wilderness uh he also was in contact with james fenimore cooper who was writing the pioneers

[00:59:46] the leather stocking tails around the same time colt came up here and he made four paintings

[00:59:55] for the last of the mohekins so there are two schools that are interacting with each other

[01:00:03] and then put on top of that the school where there are landscape architects just beginning

[01:00:11] their work around here people who were down doing central park in new york city were up here also

[01:00:20] helping to define the estates and the views from the estates and that's what the landscape

[01:00:27] architecture was all about let's take some trees out here let's plant some other trees over here

[01:00:33] and let's produce a view a planned view of this magnificent scene that's before us we have this

[01:00:43] wonderful hudson valley culture and the literature and the art and the landscape architecture are all

[01:00:52] intertwined to create this wonderful culture and it all of it every bit of it has an ice age

[01:01:00] origin the glaciers created the landscape that the artist painted it created the landscape that

[01:01:07] the architects developed and it created the landscapes that inspired the writers the

[01:01:14] writers the poets of the art hudson valley so should we do it our new chant for our new book

[01:01:24] is no ice age no painting no ice age no art no ice age on landscape art

[01:01:32] no so when you say that it begs me to ask something that i was wondering about

[01:01:39] leading up to this interview to what extent are these paintings actually an accurate portrayal

[01:01:47] of what existed when they were painted as opposed to having some modifications made by the artist

[01:01:54] it varies quite a bit uh some of them were very almost photographic but all of them i think all

[01:02:03] of them were never shy about rearranging landscape enough to make it a better painting to suit

[01:02:09] themselves too yeah if you if we could go back to the early 1800s or middle 1800s and look

[01:02:20] up and down the Hudson River i can't imagine a more horrible scene there were brick factories

[01:02:28] there were ice factories there were pollutants coming down that river that probably you didn't

[01:02:37] want to smell them from the tanneries up up here in the cat scales and they were all you know

[01:02:44] all that chemicals and all that awful if that's the word for it was awful was running down the

[01:02:52] creeks into the Hudson River and but when you look at a painting that one of those people did

[01:03:01] of the Hudson of the shores of the Hudson none of that exists you got a lot of different other

[01:03:08] stuff to add as well you know that the area was was populated with people coming up

[01:03:13] to the cat scales from the rivers and such like that with boats so there's there's big massive clouds

[01:03:18] of smoke everywhere but once you once you hit these paintings and once you hit you know James

[01:03:23] Fennimore Cooper and stuff their writings and stuff it basically makes the i mean the cat

[01:03:28] skills were definitely a place of of great worship and great solitude and nature but you

[01:03:34] know you look over to the left and there's the Hudson Valley and that was a great deal

[01:03:38] you're right it's a great deal of scariness I would say and then what like you said the before

[01:03:44] it's really cool that that you said that a lot of these artists were all linked together they were

[01:03:50] all in communication which a lot of people don't think that they were they were like that back

[01:03:57] then and you know in those early days when the communication was by pigeon is that what it was

[01:04:03] I was thinking yeah and a new scientist Thomas Cole new Benjamin Silliman who was a geologist at

[01:04:11] Yale University a big time geologist in the 1820s and Frederick Church knew Louis Agassiz

[01:04:20] Professor yeah you knew him okay they influenced you that was a bit later on you want to help me out

[01:04:25] with that part 1850s oh well of course that's Frederick Church and Louis Agassiz is considered

[01:04:32] the father of the Ice Age theory and almost the inventor of the Ice Age a discoverer of the Ice Age

[01:04:39] so but they weren't at least a bit shy about getting to know geologists and other scientists

[01:04:45] and integrating the science of the time into their art they had a first-rate commitment to art

[01:04:52] but they were aware and very curious about geology for example in the course of Empire

[01:05:00] Thomas Cole puts a big boulder on top of the mountain that is in the background of all five

[01:05:06] paintings it's a glacial erratic uh it was brought there by the Ice Age and it's purely fictional

[01:05:14] there's no such rock like that anywhere in the Catskills but he was doing breaking news

[01:05:19] geology in his art he was painting a glacial boulder in his art when they had just discovered

[01:05:27] a few years earlier the glaciers could do that that they could bring boulders on landscapes

[01:05:34] and decorate the landscapes with these enormous boulders but I have to tell you truth be told

[01:05:42] Suleiman and Cole kind of had doubts about whether or not it was the Ice Age

[01:05:50] that brought the erratics to Wend where they did they were more looking at the flood

[01:06:00] okay that was my next question so is that a time where you know people work had doubts

[01:06:05] and okay are the scientists telling us the truth about this or should we still believe

[01:06:12] in our old faith and there was a lot of controversy during those years

[01:06:18] so uh can we like go back sort of to the book a little bit is this like a guidebook basically

[01:06:26] or is this just like a kind of a book to show you the what would you say

[01:06:32] we take our readers to about 30 different locations in the Hudson Valley and Catskills

[01:06:40] if you know Sunset Rock and Catterskill Club we take you there we show you what it looks like

[01:06:47] what the Ice Age features are there and then we show you the art that was painted at that location

[01:06:53] by several Hudson Valley school artists so yeah it's a guidebook which will take you to places

[01:07:01] that illustrate the geology that created the landscape that the artists painted we take

[01:07:09] into the Hudson Valley we fill it with a Glacier Lake Glacier Lake Albany and we show

[01:07:16] our readers how the lake deposits created the landscape that the architects landscape architects

[01:07:24] planted uh mansions on Livingston Mansions the Roseville Home the Vanderbilt Home all

[01:07:31] set upon Ice Age lake deposits and they wouldn't have the landscape architecture that they had

[01:07:37] if it wasn't for the Ice Age it's a wonderful thing it really is you stand in front of the

[01:07:43] Roseville Mansion in Hyde Park and you realize you're standing on a delta that was deposited

[01:07:51] in Glacier Lake Albany that filled the entire Hudson Valley it makes your head spin

[01:07:59] exactly exactly and that's absolutely fantastic like that's just like like you said imagine in

[01:08:06] when you're there uh it really kind of sparks your curiosity of just like oh wow this is fascinating

[01:08:13] as you read the book we take our readers to a spot we show them what's there how the Ice Age

[01:08:18] created it and then we spin them off into 20 000 years into the past and we witness the

[01:08:25] glaciers doing what the glaciers did awesome awesome that's fantastic that's the way we are

[01:08:32] in our everyday existence Johanna and I will drive across the country side look at that lake bottom

[01:08:41] and she'll say look at that that ramp and pluck topography you know I don't drive anywhere with

[01:08:48] that tool too many stops right you know that's why people don't understand why I don't go on

[01:08:56] groove hikes on social hikes and that's the reason because every two minutes I'm stopping to look at

[01:09:03] something and I'm disturbing everybody else that wants to go go on come on let's go we got a

[01:09:07] guy who doesn't stop on the mountain well whenever team Titus wants to take me as a tag along on

[01:09:14] a hike with the two of you I'm completely game for it and we could go an inch an hour as far

[01:09:21] as I'm concerned if you sign up our we are Facebook page the Catskill Geologists and we

[01:09:26] announce all of our events and there will be I'll be you're going you're going to do something right

[01:09:33] opus 40 oh yeah I'm doing three field trips at opus 40 uh June July and August and I'd love to have

[01:09:41] you show up and down for it and I think Johanna is the program director at the mountaintop

[01:09:48] historical society she will probably recruit us to do something and we'll announce it uh the

[01:09:55] Facebook page of the Catskill Geologists and where it's a very active Facebook page and especially

[01:10:03] with announcements of our events definitely I love that page I think it's fantastic you'd

[01:10:10] ask questions you'll get answers immediately from either you or some local person that knows their

[01:10:14] stuff now there's some very professional geologists or members of that Alex Bartholomew

[01:10:20] is excellent at identifying the bony and panel apostles nice puts up in front of you and you

[01:10:26] can almost quickly as quickly as being cut up with an answer we've known Alex since he was in

[01:10:31] high school yeah nice so the Hudson School of Art what can you can you explain the background

[01:10:38] of that organization um well it really was never the Hudson River School of Art that was a moniker

[01:10:51] that was given to it uh as a critique um it was facetious people people in Europe kind of looked

[01:10:59] down on the artists in America especially the early artists and their so-called landscapes because they

[01:11:09] weren't really landscapes they were just horrible scary wilderness and they thought their time would

[01:11:16] have been better spent doing portraits or still lives or something of that sort something

[01:11:22] more civilized it was a smear yeah the Hudson River School of Art because it was it was an entirely

[01:11:31] new style of art that was evolving and Thomas Cole really kind of started it out uh

[01:11:41] Daughey also was one of the early growing people and people started following him

[01:11:48] and started learning from him and it just took off from there so let me ask you

[01:11:56] if there's any truth to this I read this recently that one of the things that precipitated

[01:12:03] the artists actually getting out into the field and painting what became part of the Hudson River

[01:12:11] School of Art were portable painting products portable easels paints that could could be

[01:12:18] transported with them and they could actually go out into the wilderness sit there for days on end

[01:12:26] and either sketch or paint what it was that they were looking at is is any truth to that

[01:12:32] yeah two yeah one of the things that was found at Thomas Cole's house in his basement

[01:12:40] was his painter's box with the paints and brushes and

[01:12:46] pallets in there and it was the same box that he used when he took when he went out into the

[01:12:53] wilderness nice you know great beacher who founded that institution as a museum

[01:13:00] and we were there the day he opened it up to the public and he so proudly showed us this

[01:13:07] paint kit and this is Thomas Cole's painting kit he would so but it was a big surprise they didn't know

[01:13:13] his error it just showed up Thomas Cole's painting kit wow

[01:13:21] unbelievable to know so many people throughout the Catskills who have become very important

[01:13:27] influential in developing the culture that exists here today uh it's a wonderful thing

[01:13:35] it's been a great experience for us 25 years all the people who've met and influenced us and we've

[01:13:42] been able to influence them so is there anything special about the Catskills that draws you

[01:13:48] to the Catskills itself as opposed to the Adirondacks the white mountains or some other

[01:13:54] mountain range oh i want to answer that one yeah two colors red brick red and green

[01:14:02] you see the bedrock geology of the Catskill mountains is essentially a petrified delta

[01:14:11] and the deltas oils were in a tropical setting they were what you might call Georgian red

[01:14:18] clays they were brick red in color there is no such thing in the Adirondacks the Adirondack

[01:14:26] bedrock is never red uh of course it's green in the Adirondacks but the green

[01:14:33] goes together so well with the red of the bedrock in the Catskills it makes a characteristic

[01:14:39] pair of colors green and brick red throughout the Catskills and oh do i like that it's the geology

[01:14:49] the color of the rocks as much as anything it draws me to the Catskills and drives me away

[01:14:55] from the Adirondacks i don't like the Adirondacks no offense but no in the count I don't also set

[01:15:02] a mentry rock so they are layer upon layer upon layer and you can read time in those layers

[01:15:09] and it's relatively easy to read time and their fossils and imapalli know there's no fossils

[01:15:15] in the Adirondacks well so that that's a big blow away question right there so uh

[01:15:23] I like that answer that it's pretty crazy so how did this like uh you know Ted I know

[01:15:28] you had this question when I was still this how did this differentiate uh from Europe with with

[01:15:34] Thomas Cole and stuff like that because I know he used to paint over in Europe and then came

[01:15:38] over here right no wilderness yeah many was um and yeah you could see a 800 year old ruin of a castle

[01:15:48] in Europe and in fact everywhere in Europe you want there are things to go back to Rome

[01:15:54] for crying out loud people call European landscape and Thomas Cole's day park like

[01:16:01] but here we used the word wilderness uh the definition of wilderness that I personally like

[01:16:07] as you look at a painting and you see the landscape you can imagine that you could easily go into

[01:16:14] that landscape but when you stop and think about it you wonder but could I ever get out

[01:16:21] look at an asher brown diran forest see it's easy you could walk into that forest but would you

[01:16:27] ever be able to turn around and find your way back out there's something scary

[01:16:32] Johanna said that a few minutes ago there's something scary about the sublime landscapes of the cat

[01:16:41] skills uh where they did this painting it was just a it makes the landscape that made you back

[01:16:49] to your spine shiver just a little bit and you couldn't see that in Europe it didn't exist

[01:16:54] in Europe it's just something emotional something visceral something that tingles

[01:17:01] when you look at an american landscape back then and that's the difference that's the difference

[01:17:07] and people here in america were in a way envious of europe because europe had history there were

[01:17:17] hundreds of years of civilization thousands thousand yeah in some cases uh in europe and

[01:17:26] that didn't exist here this was a place that was new so they had to make their own style and they

[01:17:32] had to make their own history yeah and I agree with you speaking of the wilderness aspect of

[01:17:39] their paintings because you can definitely see with thomas coles paintings and others

[01:17:44] paintings that have basically looked untouched like their paintings look scary and stuff with

[01:17:50] the mist hanging in over the other parts of the mountains or it's coming in or just the trees

[01:17:56] lingering there it did have a feel of like like you said damn am i gonna get out of this

[01:18:03] I used to go um when I still lived in northern new jersey where we grew up

[01:18:08] I used to go on sunday mornings to the metropolitan museum and I used to sit on the

[01:18:14] floor in the american wing staring at fredric church's heart of the andes and feeling that same

[01:18:21] way like how did he do this and how did he get in there and how did he know what was behind

[01:18:27] that tree and it and it's scary look yeah definitely and it's actually they all fun

[01:18:36] to think of that uh in somewhat of a way just like you know what we see and what they see

[01:18:43] as as of that time you know and it's given the even the old the fairy tales right you had

[01:18:54] a small community builds up so they clear some land and they make little farms

[01:18:59] but at the edges of those farms are the deep dark woods and who's there the wolves are there

[01:19:07] the bears are there you know and don't go in there they're going to get you and

[01:19:14] the mountain the mountain lions are there too they had mountains yeah and the vultures are

[01:19:19] good

[01:19:24] all right so uh do you think what do you think that they they saw in these places how how did they

[01:19:33] get to these places of kind of like the viewpoints back then where there wasn't guidebooks when

[01:19:38] there wasn't these these ways of communication that we had like you know internet books stuff

[01:19:46] like that how do they find these places to take these amazing paintings and make them into what

[01:19:51] they want well there were already some people up there so there were some trails here in there

[01:19:56] and they're true they're kind of rough but uh yeah there were some trails and oh they just walked

[01:20:06] probably like we would do if we wanted to go to the highest point to see what we could see

[01:20:12] when we got there they couldn't lose wherever they went and true true they found their spot they

[01:20:20] could have just started paying in and then it would have came out even beautiful anyway right

[01:20:26] and you know people had already discovered I imagine um indigenous people had already discovered

[01:20:32] like pine orchard and cataract falls and you know the big uh money making kind of scenes

[01:20:42] before they had gotten there and so there were guides to get them to those places true

[01:20:49] so how is it um if Thomas Cole is either the founder or one of the founders of the Hudson

[01:20:56] River school how was it it came about that he was discovered as an artist doing this work and

[01:21:04] that the the school got its momentum and became a popular school of art

[01:21:09] well this story is a commonly told one Thomas Cole came up here was 1825 each summer early autumn

[01:21:19] and he painted uh three four five awfully good paintings uh included the one of cataract falls

[01:21:27] and they were brought back to New York City and put on display in a window of a store an art

[01:21:34] store I suppose they sold boom just like that and they got very good newspaper reviews in the

[01:21:41] local newspapers and uh so he was a success overnight but what you didn't say is that

[01:21:48] a couple of those paintings were bought by artists who were already had reputation to New York City

[01:21:57] so they showed them to other artists that they knew and and it passed on he was a shocker right at

[01:22:04] the beginning and do we have any idea what those paintings sold for in 1825 25 fuck switch back

[01:22:12] then was probably a lot of money wow 25 dollars no way all right hold on I gotta I gotta figure

[01:22:20] that out so that was 1825 yeah so let's say 1825 money to now let's see it's more than stash makes a week

[01:22:32] there's a science going on right here so a dollar in 1825 is culturally equivalent to purchasing

[01:22:40] power to about 39 dollars so uh so 25 times $1 39 so 25 times 39 975 dollars today that

[01:22:52] not not a whole lot right not a whole lot for for especially that amazing painting the most successful

[01:22:59] financially successful of the Hudson River school people was Frederick church and he did monstrous

[01:23:08] paintings and got $10,000 for heart of the Andes 10,000 dollars that was a lot of money back in

[01:23:16] 1800s in the 1870s I suppose 1850s I suppose so yeah an interesting question would be if it was

[01:23:27] a monstrous painting did he actually paint it when he was out in the field in the Catskills

[01:23:32] or did he so he took sketches or something went back either to a local studio when the Catskills

[01:23:39] or New York City and painted it there the famous 10th street studio in New York City

[01:23:45] they would bring their sketchbooks back and in the middle of October I suppose and they'd

[01:23:52] spend the winter in doors turning their sketches into paintings and then he would

[01:23:58] display his paintings he would charge a nickel a person to come in and look at his latest painting

[01:24:07] and people would come there were no movies back then or anything like that so true true

[01:24:15] and can we tie the the tent street paintings into the lunch brunch that you spoke of earlier

[01:24:22] would they all hang out there have lunch together the lunch brunch evolved into a later group called

[01:24:30] the sketchbook and yeah so they were still active up until around the 1870s I don't know you know

[01:24:40] that they met every week or whatever but they were still communicating with each other and looking

[01:24:48] at each other's work and so on was there any envy or ego competition amongst them

[01:24:55] they're people I imagine yeah right right you know and you think about this they they might have gotten

[01:25:01] together you know weekly or bi-weekly but you remember how long it used to take from get from

[01:25:06] New York City to the Catskills it would take three to five days if you were rich it would

[01:25:12] take three days five days if you were not rich so go up by boat go by horse and buggy all the way

[01:25:18] up to the Catskills mountain house and then do your paintings around the area and then come back

[01:25:23] wow that's that's crazy that they would get together that often and probably chat and one of them

[01:25:29] would be like hey don't steal my location I know about this a lot of them did not spend the

[01:25:35] winter in the Catskills they went down to New York City for the winter that's unfortunate

[01:25:41] because that would have been beautiful time to see the Catskills oh yeah yeah but it's also very hard

[01:25:46] time to live in the Catskills back then definitely definitely we basically know that the Catskills

[01:25:52] basically during those times were dead because of just thought of keeping yourself warm that long

[01:25:59] and you know with the weather back then probably was absolutely insane so awesome so

[01:26:06] let's get back to basically your your visualization so you guys have been to all these sites correct

[01:26:12] yeah we are and and this is what you are portraying your thoughts with the geology of

[01:26:18] these sites that they've been to and they've painted it's you're just boom putting the

[01:26:22] geology in this picture wow that's to go with your other books to think of that you know like

[01:26:31] you said sunset rock in different places like that it's got to be phenomenal yeah oh you got to come

[01:26:37] sometime uh the program director is going to have to recruit me to do another hike up to sunset rock

[01:26:46] oh yeah yeah October there's a lot of uh see the evidence is there when you go it's sunset rock

[01:26:53] is a ledge but it's got direct immediate evidence of the ice age it's got scratches on its surface

[01:27:02] where boulders and cobbles were dragged across the sandstone by moving ice by moving glaciers

[01:27:09] it's got a fracture pattern that can only be created by the passage of a glacier across a bedrock

[01:27:16] you can stand you can look down at the rock you can put your finger literally put your finger

[01:27:23] on the evidence and you can point the direction that the glacier went you can turn around and

[01:27:30] point in the direction that the glacier came from in many locations you can point you can stand on

[01:27:37] places where melt order carved canyons you can look at well of course catter skill clove it's a

[01:27:44] canyon carved by melt order you've been there you know how big it is can you imagine

[01:27:50] melting glaciers created the water that eroded catter skill clove and platicill clove

[01:27:58] and you stand there and you look at it and a word that we johan and i don't like to use

[01:28:04] is the word oah because it's too commonly used but we can't escape that word it follows us around

[01:28:12] wherever we go in the cat scales we look and we see the evidence and we realize what is there in front

[01:28:21] of us and we can't help but being bored by it to stand on poet's ledge and to fill it the valley

[01:28:30] below you with ice and beneath that ice is massive amounts of water meltwater

[01:28:38] cascading down the canyon raging bowing pounding thundering torrents torrents of water going down

[01:28:47] the canyon it's but but talent you have to understand also that we do do some real science

[01:28:58] okay one of the things that absolutely astounded i think both of us was that we were at north lake and

[01:29:09] we were looking at different glacial striations and you can figure out the direction of the glacier

[01:29:18] by the way the striations are moving the compass direction and moving it

[01:29:23] and so on one end they were going one way and on the other end they were coming

[01:29:31] in the opposite direction yeah so that we stood there and all of a sudden there was an epiphany

[01:29:41] that there were two glaciers and they came at each other head on and in the middle of north

[01:29:49] south lake they smacked dab ran into each other we wrote a column an article in catch kill life

[01:29:57] magazine which was entitled ice age train wrecks i'll have to look that one i recognize that it was

[01:30:06] a scientific discovery and i don't even have imagery that i can very quickly go to about

[01:30:15] an occasion like that because what happens and those two glaciers in each other do they go up

[01:30:22] in the air do they crash do they crumble do they you know it's not happening today because

[01:30:28] glaciers are not advancing today so we're taking readers back to a time when glaciers were

[01:30:34] expanding when the climate was getting colder and things happened then they can't happen on

[01:30:40] the planet earth today but you can only imagine and you struggle Johanna can't imagine what happened

[01:30:46] you do the best you can but wow two glaciers collided right here you're standing there and the

[01:30:54] glaciers collided with each other that's all you cannot escape that word yeah exactly now if

[01:31:01] you can get us to use the word iconic then you're really going to we refuse to no no

[01:31:08] so you stole my thunder there because one of my three questions was going to be what is the greatest

[01:31:17] realization or discovery that you've made in your journey a lot of stories yes and and is this

[01:31:24] the the collision of the two glaciers and glacial spillways uh yeah yeah when you go to stony

[01:31:36] clove you pass through a deep v-shaped valley and you go up to uh grand gorge and you pass

[01:31:47] through another steep valley and what's the one in the middle that's called deep gorge i think

[01:31:54] deep notch deep notch deep notch and all three of those were carved probably over the course of

[01:32:03] decades or centuries by the melt order of a glacier that filled up the scohery creek valley

[01:32:11] and that is to realize that that's an epiphany to stand at the bottom of the canyon at the

[01:32:19] top of stony clove to look to the north to see the blue gray image of a melting glacier to feel

[01:32:28] currents of melt water pouring through that gap where you're standing and to watch it disappear

[01:32:35] off to the south it's a journey into a past that simply doesn't exist uh anywhere today

[01:32:42] there's nothing that maybe somewhere in greenland that's happening today

[01:32:48] maybe maybe somewhere in it yeah but no it's not like that though not like that at all

[01:32:53] not like that uh yeah the word epiphany it's not hard to get us to use the word epiphany

[01:33:00] we get so excited but just this morning i took photographs of a site that was painted

[01:33:08] in 1858 by a renowned landscape artist and nobody had known this site since 1858 it wasn't recorded

[01:33:21] in the literature where he painted this image it's uh ball webber and a view in the Catskills

[01:33:31] is the title of the painting which doesn't tell you anything about where it was painted

[01:33:37] and i had a pretty good idea where it was and i've been out this morning and there it was

[01:33:42] wow because stand where you stood you have to have a pretty good memory of what the rock

[01:33:50] surfaces look like and maybe some individual big boulders but what the shape of the boulders

[01:33:58] were when you looked at them and then you can do that you can say i know where that is

[01:34:04] yeah we've had the experience where we both pointed at painting at the same time i said that's

[01:34:09] and then we say where it was uh we did several articles in the mountain eagle recently tracing

[01:34:16] down where thomas call painted two of his paintings and nobody had ever recorded where they were

[01:34:24] have you ever been up to the rip van lindel house in the old mountain turnpike

[01:34:28] with thomas bowlin up there once and you know the stage stopped there they got out and they had

[01:34:35] refreshments i think thomas called that out and he took out a sketch pad and he painted an image

[01:34:42] of the canyon to below him we went over uh to a place called oak road in northwest saugerties

[01:34:52] and we found the location where thomas call painted another which he entitled cat skill landscape

[01:34:59] which tells you nothing about where it was but we looked at the painting and we saw the bottom

[01:35:05] of a lake and we saw the lower part of a slope in the cat skills we knew it had to be cat or

[01:35:13] skill clove there's only a little bit of it in the painting but below cat or skill clove

[01:35:18] there's an ice age lake a flat landscape at the bottom of the lake and we had no trouble we got

[01:35:25] the map out we said it's gotta be here look at that there's something called oak road so we drove

[01:35:30] down to oak road and we got out on oak road oak road has been there for 200 years our stone houses

[01:35:37] on oak road they have to go back to the 1700s and we found it uh we found the site where he

[01:35:45] painted the painting we could go and stand where we think he must have stood and and we realized that

[01:35:52] ha nobody is in here nobody has looked at this view since thomas call did it himself wow can you imagine

[01:36:02] what a long variance that is you can go see the paintings at cedar grove they're hanging on the

[01:36:07] wall awesome i'll tag that so i hate i hate to be the party pooper here but let me know

[01:36:13] go on the other tack yeah what is the greatest mystery or greatest thing that you want to

[01:36:22] figure out how it happened or came to be in the cat skills but you haven't been able to connect the

[01:36:28] dots yet uh golly and we're gonna think of that five minutes after the show is over

[01:36:36] that's how it happens that's a tough question there's nothing out there that you you look at

[01:36:45] and wonder and wonder and wonder some more when you ask me like that i can't think of

[01:36:52] sorry sorry to put you on the spot if you if you want i could i that's the one of the questions

[01:36:57] you have to tell your interview person ahead of time or we could have spent all last night

[01:37:03] thinking about you got it for well for me i have um little arguments with some of the people that i

[01:37:12] know around in the cat skills about how the ice melted pictured a gigantic mile high sheet of ice

[01:37:23] all the way back to newfoundland and when it started to melt how did it melt

[01:37:31] did it melt from the bottom how did it melt from the top did you know and i'm i'm of the opinion

[01:37:40] that the sun hit the top and it started melting from the top and it caused cracks and everywhere

[01:37:48] there was a crack in the ice the water would start coming down and it would go down and all the way

[01:37:54] down to the bottom of the glacier and then flow out and you see that happening in greenland a lot

[01:38:03] now because there's a lot of ice melting you know unfortunately in greenland but you see

[01:38:10] temporary lakes appear where the ice on the top is melting and then the ice will crack underneath

[01:38:18] it and all of a sudden that lake will disappear in a matter of minutes

[01:38:24] yeah and that's kind of scary but jo hannah imagines and i think she convinced me of this i

[01:38:30] disagreed with her at first she imagines that both catarisk hill clove and platic hill clove

[01:38:36] the lower parts were shaded and so they were the last parts to melt and in our book we portray

[01:38:43] catarisk hill clove partially filled happily filled up with melting ice where all the higher

[01:38:49] elevation ice is melted away i just thought of a mystery that i've been working on for years this

[01:38:55] is a good one all right let's hear it go to olana in the middle of the winter or real winter

[01:39:03] when the cat skills are blanketed in snow uh you have you have an image that kind of takes

[01:39:10] you back to the ice age cat skills are blanketed in snow during the ice age it occurred to me

[01:39:17] that if i could get to olana uh late at night uh on a full moon night when the cat skills were

[01:39:26] blanketed in snow that i would be able to take a photo and i would represent this as what the

[01:39:33] cat skills must have looked like from olana at the peak of the ice age well you know what winters

[01:39:41] have been like i had to put out olana were really nice they said you know we will give you permission

[01:39:47] to come over there anytime late at night on a moon a full moon night and that would be starting

[01:39:54] about 11 o'clock when the moon is high up in the sky we'd be delighted to have you come over

[01:39:59] just let us know you're coming and we won't arrest you and but we haven't been able to get

[01:40:07] the cat skills blanketed in snow it just we've been years now we've been hoping that we'd get a full

[01:40:13] moon i mean be able to go over there and take the picture i'm dying to do that and i don't know

[01:40:20] if it'll ever happen that's a good one yeah so basically what you're saying is that you would

[01:40:26] go to olana and you would see basically the the blackheads white but with their tippy tops

[01:40:34] with their their forest and it would basically be looking like there's glaciers on there and then all

[01:40:39] the things that would be sticking out would be thomas col black don't blackhead yeah wow good

[01:40:45] good like it didn't snow there'd be a sheen a silvery sheen we've already got the phrase written

[01:40:51] we haven't got the picture and of course there's always the pahoe at olana oh yeah oh good thing

[01:41:02] during the melting of a glacier vast quantities of water pour through the ice they're carrying

[01:41:10] sand with them when they get to the bedrock below it's not unusual for the water to swirl

[01:41:17] and actually drill a hole into the bedrock below we call it a pahoe uh on the mohawk river there's an

[01:41:25] island but there's a couple of pussies pahoe's that's very famous for that what they found in

[01:41:32] the late 1800s when frederick church was still there he was building olana yeah he found a

[01:41:38] pahoe they took good pictures of it and we've never been able to locate it henry oddborn

[01:41:45] who was one of the founders of the museum of natural history in new york city

[01:41:49] was standing inside the pahoe and it was like over his head oh yeah so you're telling me there's

[01:41:58] this pahoe sitting out in the middle of somewhere of the blackhead mountains a lot of air

[01:42:02] somewhere what we're afraid of is that frederick church used it to build it up in garbage

[01:42:07] oh so this is uh challenge accepted we have we've got photo we don't care there's photographs of it

[01:42:15] and we've alerted them they all know about it but nobody's but i've gone looking and go in his health

[01:42:22] look we've looked and we looked we it's supposed to be at 300 feet in elevation and we've literally

[01:42:29] walked to 300 foot contour and we can't find the thing interesting yeah there are three mysteries that

[01:42:39] we haven't made or so challenge accepted 308 and this is you said this was 300 feet so this would

[01:42:49] be are you talking about okay all right so we'll check it out all right so uh thank you for for joining

[01:42:56] us guys tonight we're gonna i'm gonna tag all your book in here tonight and great discussion about

[01:43:01] once again the geology of the cat's ghost and how the hudson school art came into contact with this

[01:43:08] geology and and portrayed it and you guys are going to portray it even more with your geology

[01:43:14] terms than your geology imagination that i love i love oh so much with your books so uh come see

[01:43:21] us on saturday morning at the fdr library at the wall of center we're speaking at local history day

[01:43:27] and this saturday at ten o'clock yeah awesome awesome hopefully i'll get this out on friday so

[01:43:33] hopefully people will join you there so uh last last question post hike bruising bites what do you

[01:43:39] guys suggest to go get something to eat and or drink in the cat's ghost she's a wonderful cook

[01:43:46] you know she likes to make very good sandwiches uh which we have on our hikes uh it's tough to

[01:43:54] compete that's not a cheat if it's the truth stick with it the restaurant somewhere

[01:44:04] oh is that place in windham they make good sandwiches what's the name of that place i

[01:44:10] think we could take you there i just can't think of a shenanigans hey that's all good so

[01:44:17] i'll find a place in windham and i'll tag them in this just to just to give them some five minutes

[01:44:22] after the show is over we'll email you please please do i'll throw it in there so uh once again

[01:44:28] thank you to the monthly supporters and monthly sponsors really appreciate you guys sticking

[01:44:33] us for us with us for the show uh thank you to everyone who's still listening uh once again

[01:44:37] dr titus after a hundred and what it was a hundred and eight eighteen episodes you're you're back again

[01:44:43] to uh join us and talk about your new book and once again we had great time chatting with you so

[01:44:48] thanks for joining us thank you thank you team titus thank you once again team titus uh have a

[01:44:54] good night uh we'll chat again thank you yep good night

[01:45:01] hey everyone i just want to thank you for listening to the show if you enjoyed the show

[01:45:06] subscribe and throw down a smooth review on spotify apple podcast or any podcast platform

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[01:45:30] just keep on living the cat skills man

[01:45:34] livi wake up wake up wake up wake up